The Bible on The History Channel (Read 414 times)

     

    Once you accept this idea, you can see how no child is innocent of sin -- though may not have done anything personally wrong.  

     

    --All I can say is that I can never accept such an idea.  I understand many cultures feel this way about it.  Take North Korea for instance... Once a father sins (perhaps by speaking out against the regime), then his sons for generations are subjected to a life of imprisonment and work camps.

     

    --That above example may be on the extreme side, but in any regard, I do not feel that the sins of a father somehow convey over to the child, as if that child is 'predestined' to carry the burden of his fathers sins.   I think that may be a weakness of human character and human culture to force a son or many generations to suffer the burdens of their fathers mistakes (or perceived mistakes).  I cannot register how any God would burden unborn children with the stain of what the parent may have done.

     

    --If I live a great life of faithfulness to spouse, raising of children properly, all that good stuff, but my father flips out, becomes an axe murder, and kills 15 people in a rampage, would people think less of me?  Would a God think less of me?   --- I just cannot accept that 'sin' before birth is a Godly determination. Sounds more like something that the human culture came up with, adn thus how it found its' way into the bible.  Human, not Godly, my opinion.

    The Plan '15 edition (big parts)→  /// April '15:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer  (Goal: >80.1+Miles)  ///   Run streak, at least a mile every single day for 365.  ∞

    Who Dey


      KL ... Quick note to say that I agree with the sentiments you've expressed.  I was raised within a Christian Fundamentalist community of faith and after walking away from the faith for many reasons including ones you've mentioned, I eventually found my way back to Christianity.

       

      I tried watching the subject series, but could only watch a small bit as it necessarily conveys a literal interpretation of the Bible ... an interpretation I no longer embrace.

       

      Finally, I want to commend everyone for the polite discourse on a topic that often brings out strong emotion.


      Feeling the growl again

         

        -

         

        --If I live a great life of faithfulness to spouse, raising of children properly, all that good stuff, but my father flips out, becomes an axe murder, and kills 15 people in a rampage, would people think less of me?  Would a God think less of me?  

        This is a misunderstanding of original sin.  Original sin refers specifically to the fall from grace of Adam and Eve and their exile from the perfect world (the Garden of Eden) created by God to our current one, making all humans sinful by nature.

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

          KL ... Quick note to say that I agree with the sentiments you've expressed.  I was raised within a Christian Fundamentalist community of faith and after walking away from the faith for many reasons including ones you've mentioned, I eventually found my way back to Christianity.

           

          I tried watching the subject series, but could only watch a small bit as it necessarily conveys a literal interpretation of the Bible ... an interpretation I no longer embrace.

           

          Finally, I want to commend everyone for the polite discourse on a topic that often brings out strong emotion.

           

          ---I'd like to say that I am glad you found your way back to Christianity.   I have these opinions of mine, I am not of any religion, but I have traveled the world and seen happy Buddhists, happy Christians, happy Muslims, and even happier Mormons. (I suppose it is the multiple wives for the Mormons?!)  Okay, that was a joke of course on the mormons, but there are times I 'wish' I could have faith, but cannot.  It is what it is, and I am still very happy as well just being 'agnostic' and uncertain in that regard.    But by in large, people have faith in different things but it makes their lives better, and so that is a great thing by in large on the personal level.

           

          ---On that last statement I bolded from your quote, I agree!  RA is the ONLY place I have ever seen people talk about a potentially hot topic such as religion and not have it get ugly and personal at some point.  This gives me some renewed faith in the Human Race as a whole. Big grin  I commend everyone as well for the polite discourse.

          .

          The Plan '15 edition (big parts)→  /// April '15:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer  (Goal: >80.1+Miles)  ///   Run streak, at least a mile every single day for 365.  ∞

             

            Well back to the more christian part of the religious aspect... From where I stand, if there is a "higher power" and he is "everloving and forgiving", etc, then I should  be fine because I have always run a good course in life.  (excuse the pun Smile

             

            You realize that your measurement of good is the line between everlasting life and death?  Are you really comfortable with "I should be fine"?

             

            I realize you have questions about God's method's.  None of us have all the answers.  As a Christian, I do not have all the answers, but  I do have faith.  I believe that Jesus is Lord, and he died for our sin's and that the only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus.

              If I don't have time to say something thoughtful, I'd just as soon stay out.

               

              I miss you.

               

              Who Dey


                KL ... I think I understand where you're coming from as it sounds very much like where I find myself.  Ultimately, it was important for me to find my way back to Christianity because it was what I grew up with.  In my explorations, I found much that I liked and admired in other religions, but I came to realize that religion is very much cultural specific.  I probably wouldn't make a very good Buddhist because I wouldn't understand the cultural aspects.  Good conversation.

                   

                     But by in large, people have faith in different things but it makes their lives better, and so that is a great thing by in large on the personal level.

                   

                  Quick aside: the idiom is "by and large" - from nautical "by the wind" (into) and "large to the wind" (with), so in all conditions, both by and large to the wind...carry on with the "discourse"

                  Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and rogues
                  We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
                  fitfatboy


                  More cowbell!

                    Hi KL,

                     

                    Wow.  Your arguments resonated with me, and I've been wondering for a few days how, or if I should respond.  I'm not the brightest bulb in the strand when it comes to theological arguments.  But if I might share my story with you...I grew up in a Protestant Christian household, went to a Christian university, and wound up shortly thereafter having a crisis in my faith due to my having a question that was quite similar to your logical conundrum.  For me, the question was how could a just and loving God possibly send people to hell who had never even heard of Him and his gift of grace given through the death of Jesus Christ, or who never even been afforded that opportunity.  It was enough that I didn't set foot in a church for about 3-years.  I finally simply asked God directly "HOW COULD YOU???"  All I can say is that I asked, and He answered...in the form of my hearing thoughts that were clearly not my own.  The response was unexpected, since I didn't truly believe that my question mattered; it hadn't for 3 years, and calming.

                     

                    So while there is a lot of wisdom and truth in the responses in this thread, it seems that the wisdom of men is not enough for you.  No offense to anyone who has responded, I fully appreciate and am thankful for their responses.  But it certainly wasn't enough for me either at the time.  So may I suggest that you take a chance, and take about 1/2 hour and get alone and ask God your question directly.  Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, "Ask, and you shall receive.  Seek, and you shall find.  Knock, and the door will be opened."  Yes, the exercise requires a measure of faith to take that chance.  If you get nothing out of it, then the worst that has happened it that there's a 1/2 hour of your life down the tubes.  Shoot, we've all lost more than that looking through these message boards at times!

                     

                    Shalom y'all,

                     

                    Sam

                     

                    PS-I didn't share what I heard b/c if you decide to take me up on this suggestion, I don't want to cloud your thoughts with those from my experience.

                     

                    Summing it up for me, I still hold that there may be a "greater power", but I do not believe in God as written in the bible.   Again, skipping all the analogy of the texts and all other things one could talk about, here is an example of the most conflictual piece of it (tor me) that I simply cannot grasp:

                     

                    Most religious folks are pro-life and believe that all life is precious from inception, therefore once a baby is conceived in the womb, it should never be aborted.  (I understand this part).

                     

                    The part that I do not understand is if you read about the Noah's Ark events as written in the bible, an everloving God killed everything on earth, including innocent infants, toddlers, unborn babies in the womb!

                     

                    And there you have it.  That is a huge item I cannot comprehend.  It screams Contradiction loudly to me.    Using basic logic, I see no way around that conflict.  I see no justification on why a God, creator of all things, would kill all, including all infants and unborn children, and I see no reason why people who are pfo-life would pray to this very same God who did such.

                    .

                    STILL HAVING FUN!!!

                    mab411


                    Proboscis Colossus

                       

                       

                      ---On that last statement I bolded from your quote, I agree!  RA is the ONLY place I have ever seen people talk about a potentially hot topic such as religion and not have it get ugly and personal at some point.

                      .

                       

                      It is not!!!  YOU SHUT YOUR HOLE, YOU IGNORANT, SORRY-LOOKING--

                       

                      Oops, sorry!  Sorry...lost my head for a second, there...

                       

                      Kidding, of course!  I'm happy things have been so civil, too.  Good data for this theory I've been developing lately that maybe atheists and agnostics aren't all combative, acerbic jerks who have no desire to understand any viewpoint but their own.

                       

                      KLD, I've been thinking a lot about your questions on my last couple of runs, and maybe it's an electrolyte imbalance, but I came up with a couple of comments that may or may not do anything to reconcile the apparent inconsistency for you, but that I wanted to add to the discussion anyway.

                       

                      The first is specific to the passage in question, and that is that, given the lack of any indication that God kept the innocents out of Heaven and the general Judeo/Christian belief that Heaven is a much better place than Earth (post-exile)...it's really not the worst thing that could have happened to them.  Even the "worst" part of the deal, the actual physical death, could have been worse...they say drowning is actually pretty peaceful (though admittedly, I'd still pick good ol' "dying in my sleep" every time).

                       

                      The second is more of a general comment about Scripture, and that is that, as others have pointed out, some don't consider many of the OT stories to be literal renditions of events, anyway.  I myself am undecided...on the one hand, I do think many of the stories are "true" in the metaphorical sense, if not in the literal.  In fact, my current Southern Baptist pastor teaches a series on Revelation which he begins by cautioning that most of the images contained in that book are symbolic - I wouldn't be surprised if I got to Heaven and learned upon arrival that Noah, Samson, Adam and Eve and Co. were not real figures, but characters that were given to us - through divine inspiration, mind you - to impart truths about how the world works, and about our relationship with God.

                       

                      On the other hand, the standard response from my current denomination is, "Well, if you don't believe Judges 16:30 is true, then how do you know John 3:16 is true?!!  And I think that's a good point, if one considers all scripture to be divinely inspired, it's certainly a dangerous game to be cherry-picking the parts that you "think" are true and which aren't.  More so if you start cherry-picking the parts you think are divinely inspired.  But my faith and my salvation are in the person of Jesus Christ.  Noah didn't die for my sins; I'm not charged with the task of spreading the good news of Joseph.  While I do indeed take the events in the New Testament at face value, it's not going to rock my world too badly if it were somehow proven to me that Adam and Eve didn't exist as historical figures.  I do believe those stories as of now - it's not really hurting anything for me to - but I don't get too hot  under the collar when people question them.

                       

                      All that to say, if it seems like God's actions in Genesis seem a little incongruous with the figure in the NT, in addition to considering that the Bible as a whole is a narrative from beginning to end, it could also be that the author was a little hyperbolic when he said that the flood wiped out everyone besides Noah's family.

                       

                       

                       

                      Edited for grammar.

                      "God guides us on our journey, but careful with those feet." - David Lee Roth, of all people


                      HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                         

                        ... the author was a little hyperbolic when he said that the flood wiped out everyone besides Noah's family.

                         

                        He should try eating bananas. I hear that helps with that can help with that kind of electrolyte issue.

                        It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                        Ostrich runner

                          It isn't particularly helpful to any ancient and prehistorical story to put on it the weight of being historical. The original tellers probably didn't intend or understand many of these stories as history in a modern sense. The danger for the believer in the responding to criticism about Genesis with an answer about John is that it opens up the inverse of the argument as well.

                          http://www.runningahead.com/groups/Indy/forum

                          Who Dey


                            It isn't particularly helpful to any ancient and prehistorical story to put on it the weight of being historical.

                            Good point.  Stories can convey truth without being historically true.

                            zonykel


                              I used to read a Facebook page for atheists only. Unfortunately, some of them were quite rude and condescending towards theists. They relished the confrontation more than anything else.

                               

                              in any case, yes, there are a ton of contradictions in the bible, and I'm sure a believer will be able to excuse them all away.

                               

                              Back when I was part of a group called "officer Christian fellowship", the author of a book titled "why anyone should believe anything at all" gave a lecture. He said, "if god isn't a loving god, then he isn't worth a damn", and I thought that was an interesting idea. btw, the author was Christian and obviously drew his conclusions towards believing in Christianity.

                               

                              but someone brought up the point that if god kills a bunch of people (as in the flood), then what kind of morals does he have? someone counted how many people god killed according to the bible. I think the number was in the range of 2 million (excluding events like the flood, where no specific number was given). Obviously, since I think the bible is fiction, I can't be mad at an imaginary character killing millions of people. But I don't know why people would want to believe in that.


                              Singer who doesn't run.

                                Summing it up for me, I still hold that there may be a "greater power", but I do not believe in God as written in the bible.   Again, skipping all the analogy of the texts and all other things one could talk about, here is an example of the most conflictual piece of it (tor me) that I simply cannot grasp:

                                 

                                Most religious folks are pro-life and believe that all life is precious from inception, therefore once a baby is conceived in the womb, it should never be aborted.  (I understand this part).

                                 

                                The part that I do not understand is if you read about the Noah's Ark events as written in the bible, an everloving God killed everything on earth, including innocent infants, toddlers, unborn babies in the womb!

                                 

                                And there you have it.  That is a huge item I cannot comprehend.  It screams Contradiction loudly to me.    Using basic logic, I see no way around that conflict.  I see no justification on why a God, creator of all things, would kill all, including all infants and unborn children, and I see no reason why people who are pfo-life would pray to this very same God who did such.

                                .

                                My opinion, which I haven't seen anyone else post yet:  My understanding is that until a child is old enough to know right from wrong and choose to do wrong, it is innocent.  Babies and children who die before this point get a straight pass into Heaven.  I don't see it as a tragedy that these kids didn't get a chance to live on earth -- they got to bypass all the struggles and problems and go directly to The Awesomeness.

                                My second opinion, is that trying to completely understand God with my human intellect is a lost cause.

                                My third opinion is that the Bible boils down to this:  Love God.  Love others.  Nothing else matters.

                                When it's all said and done, no one remembers how far we have run.  The only thing that matters is how we have loved.