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How big needs a hill to be for proper hill training? (Read 1524 times)


Black-Toe-Nailed

    Hi all,

     

    I live in The Netherlands aka "Holland" as both names implies this country is flat as a pannekoek, our own version of the pancake.

     

    I can find some elevations in the landscape but I wonder if they can be considered proper hills for hill intervals.

     

    The smaller ones are 0.25 mi (400m) in length and 30ft (9m) of height and I have a longer one that is about 0.5 mi (750m actually) and 66ft (20m) height.

     

    Are these enough for hill intervals ?

     

    Or should I definitely consider emigrating to the Himalayas ?

    --

    "If one can stick to the training throughout the many long years,
    then will power is no longer a problem. It's raining? That doesn't matter.
    I am tired? That's besides the point. It's simply that I just have to."

    Emil Zatopek

      Why not considering migrating from the 'Randstad' to Limburg to find some hills in your own country?  To a 'Hollander' the culture there may be as exotic as in the Himalayas Wink...

       

      As you can see in my sig, I'm from Belgium  (and I work in the Netherlands), so I don't have many hills in my neighbourhood either.  The best I have in my vicinity (at 500 m from my house) is a bridge that I sometimes run up and down and up and down and... I suppose it has about the same length and height as the elevations in your neighbourhood.

       

      And I have been considering running the paths on the former 'mine-terril' of Beringen, that has been turned into a nature reserve... (I guess it goes from about 25 m above see-level to about 100 m)

       

      People have suggested to run on a tredmill for hill-training... But I can't imagine myself ever running indoor...

      Running in Belgium
      Ann

       

       

       


      ultramarathon/triathlete

        I suppose you could use a treadmill at a good incline, though it would likely be boring.

        HTFU?  Why not!

        Coach: Empire Tri Club 

        Speed Coach: Brooklyn Tri Club

          Do they have parking garages in the Netherlands? Or does everyone bike to work.

            My son just recently completed his 7th grade science project which was measuring the affect of HR when running on various inclines. 

            Using our treadmill, he had each subject run at at easy pace at 0% (determine by HR) and then measured the HR at 2, 5, and 8% inclines.   It normally took about 2 minutes for the HR to stabilize at each new incline. I also took part in the experiment.  

             

            Based on his results, and what I experienced, I don't think you need to go to 8%. That hurts as much as a 5K, and for some got near their theoretical maximum. You get a really good rise in HR and leg burn at 5%. Even at 2% there's a pretty decent rise in HR.  

             

            Based on my own training, I'm not coached to go about 5%. Sometimes it's less. The effort/pace will vary . I think even a 5% incline gets you to emphasize good knee lift. 

              My son just recently completed his 7th grade science project which was measuring the affect of HR when running on various inclines. 

              Using our treadmill, he had each subject run at at easy pace at 0% (determine by HR) and then measured the HR at 2, 5, and 8% inclines.   It normally took about 2 minutes for the HR to stabilize at each new incline. I also took part in the experiment.  

               

              Based on his results, and what I experienced, I don't think you need to go to 8%. That hurts as much as a 5K, and for some got near their theoretical maximum. You get a really good rise in HR and leg burn at 5%. Even at 2% there's a pretty decent rise in HR.  

               

              Based on my own training, I'm not coached to go about 5%. Sometimes it's less. The effort/pace will vary . I think even a 5% incline gets you to emphasize good knee lift. 

               

              Tom,

              Cool project for a 7th grader!

               

              Somewhat trivial question, but....

              help me with the math (as I can't figure out whether a treadmill is "%" incline or "degree" incline).

              With EnricM's example, a 9 meter lift on 400 meters equates to what on a treadmill?

              2.25%??? (9/400 = 2.25%)

              2.025 degrees??? 200/400 = 45 degrees / 200 = .225 degrees / meter = 2.025 degrees for 9 meters on 400 length

               

              I would have guessed that the inclines would be in "degrees" rather than "percent", but I've never thought about it.

               

              EnricM,

              Hup Holland!

              "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much!"

              Brian.

              2014 Goals:

              #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

              #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

               

                Tom,

                Cool project for a 7th grader!

                 

                Somewhat trivial question, but....

                help me with the math (as I can't figure out whether a treadmill is "%" incline or "degree" incline).

                With EnricM's example, a 9 meter lift on 400 meters equates to what on a treadmill?

                2.25%??? (9/400 = 2.25%)

                2.025 degrees??? 200/400 = 45 degrees / 200 = .225 degrees / meter = 2.025 degrees for 9 meters on 400 length

                 

                I would have guessed that the inclines would be in "degrees" rather than "percent", but I've never thought about it.

                 

                EnricM,

                Hup Holland!

                "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much!"

                Brian.

                 

                 

                It was a pretty cool project for  him.  He wanted to do something running related, and there's lots of rules to follow when using people as test subjects.  But, I think he learned a lot doing the project.

                 

                For your question,  you need to use either sine or tangent to go from rise over run (percent) to degrees. As long as the rise amount is a small percent of the run amount, it doesn't matter if you use either sine or tangent.  

                 

                sin (angle) = 9/400  = 0.0225

                tan(angle) = 9 / 400 = 0.0225

                 

                Then, solve for angle using a trig table.  http://math2.org/math/trig/tables.htm

                 

                This gives a degree between 1 and 2 regardless if you use sine or tangent. 

                  It was a pretty cool project for  him.  He wanted to do something running related, and there's lots of rules to follow when using people as test subjects.  But, I think he learned a lot doing the project.

                   

                  For your question,  you need to use either sine or tangent to go from rise over run (percent) to degrees. As long as the rise amount is a small percent of the run amount, it doesn't matter if you use either sine or tangent.  

                   

                  sin (angle) = 9/400  = 0.0225

                  tan(angle) = 9 / 400 = 0.0225

                   

                  Then, solve for angle using a trig table.  http://math2.org/math/trig/tables.htm

                   

                  This gives a degree between 1 and 2 regardless if you use sine or tangent. 

                   

                  So, his hill option within the lowlands of Holland would be about the same as running on a treadmill at 2 incline, right? (or is it the "between 1 & 2"?)  What's displayed on a treadmill (percent or degrees)? 

                  2014 Goals:

                  #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                  #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                   

                    So, his hill option within the lowlands of Holland would be about the same as running on a treadmill at 2 incline, right? (or is it the "between 1 & 2"?)  What's displayed on a treadmill (percent or degrees)? 

                     

                    It's between 1 and 2 (go with 1.5% incline)

                    All the treadmills I've had and used display percent.  There might be some out there that go by degrees -- I just haven't seen them.

                      I've been doing hill repeats on my treadmill like this:

                       

                      5min warmup:  3mph/1:00, 4mph/1:00, 5mph/3:00

                      Hill repeats:  I start at a 6% incline running at 6mph for 1:00 then recover running at 4mph at a 2% for 1:00.  Then I step up the incline by 1% to 7% for 1:00 and do my 4mph/ 2% recover for 1:00.  I'll keep stepping up my incline until I max out at 10%.  After that I start stepping down back to 6%. 

                      5min cool down

                       

                      Since I have to manually control my speed and incline there's no time to get bored.  Great work out.  Of course you can adjust the speed according to your level.

                      Shut Up And Run

                       

                      2012 Goals:  sub-30:00 5k accomplished 1-28-12, sub-25:00 5k, sub-20:00 5k, run a 10k race

                        I've been doing hill repeats on my treadmill like this:

                         

                        5min warmup:  3mph/1:00, 4mph/1:00, 5mph/3:00

                        Hill repeats:  I start at a 6% incline running at 6mph for 1:00 then recover running at 4mph at a 2% for 1:00.  Then I step up the incline by 1% to 7% for 1:00 and do my 4mph/ 2% recover for 1:00.  I'll keep stepping up my incline until I max out at 10%.  After that I start stepping down back to 6%. 

                        5min cool down

                         

                        Since I have to manually control my speed and incline there's no time to get bored.  Great work out.  Of course you can adjust the speed according to your level.

                        Let me get this straight; so you first crank up the hill as well as the speed?  

                         

                        A quick suggestion, first of all, do a little longer warm-up.  10 minimum, preferably 15-minutes.  Then crank up the degree but SLOW DOWN the speed and do it longer, say 3 to 5 minutes uphill.  Depending on where you are in the program, hill training is actually best done at slower speed for about 3 minutes.  This is the way to do it as plyometric exercise.

                         

                        Now, I know some people now likes to do a short, sharp "alactic" hill sprint.  That is fine too IF you are strong enough to handle it.  Most sub-elite runners, when they try to sprint as fast as they can for a short period, they'll struggle.  As soon as they struggle, running uphill, you'll teach your body a wrong running form.  This workout can come later--like once you would have developed a very solid aerobic foundation like some Kenyan runners. 


                        Black-Toe-Nailed

                          So, his hill option within the lowlands of Holland would be about the same as running on a treadmill at 2 incline, right? (or is it the "between 1 & 2"?)  What's displayed on a treadmill (percent or degrees)? 

                           

                          I just calculated the slopes and I got the following values (in metric, but the slope percentage is the same).

                          The formula I used is:

                           

                                tan Q = height/run       

                                slope % = 100(tan Q)

                           

                          I got thus 3 different slopes:

                           

                          The first one is a short 140m long and 13m heigh (that's 0.086mi and 43ft aprox) with a slope of 9.6%

                          A second on is a long 890m 'hill' with 21.8m of height difference (that's 0.55mi and 71,5ft) thus 2,4% 

                          And the last one on the same course (I am doing it now as out-and-back or lollipop) is 400m long and 14,4m height (0,24mi and 46ft) with  a slope of 3,6%

                           

                          No idea what incline this would be on a treadmill, I suppose that not all of them use slope percentage (never used one, too big for my house).

                           

                          It thus seems more or less good for hill workouts from what I read.

                           

                          I will therefore reconsider my plan to moving to the Himalayas for now, lol. 

                          --

                          "If one can stick to the training throughout the many long years,
                          then will power is no longer a problem. It's raining? That doesn't matter.
                          I am tired? That's besides the point. It's simply that I just have to."

                          Emil Zatopek

                             

                             

                            No idea what incline this would be on a treadmill, I suppose that not all of them use slope percentage (never used one, too big for my house).

                             

                             

                             

                            Most TM's use percent, not degrees. 

                             

                            However, that's not the end of the story... I had never fathomed that the % incline values on the TM would be inaccurate. I mean, how hard could it be to get a mechanical device to go up or down a precise amount? Apparently, it's not easy for all to get it right. 

                             

                            Well, I recently switched from a Sole to the Landice. The Sole at 10% incline was about 5% on the Landice. The Sole at 15% incline was about 7 or 8% on the Landice-- with the Landice being the more accurate machine. 


                            Black-Toe-Nailed

                              Why not considering migrating from the 'Randstad' to Limburg to find some hills in your own country?  To a 'Hollander' the culture there may be as exotic as in the Himalayas Wink...

                               

                               

                              Limburg? Too exotic, lol!

                              But I wouldn't mind emigrating to Belgium... hmmm lekker abdij beer Wink

                              --

                              "If one can stick to the training throughout the many long years,
                              then will power is no longer a problem. It's raining? That doesn't matter.
                              I am tired? That's besides the point. It's simply that I just have to."

                              Emil Zatopek

                              ud32


                                Let me get this straight; so you first crank up the hill as well as the speed?  

                                 

                                A quick suggestion, first of all, do a little longer warm-up.  10 minimum, preferably 15-minutes.  Then crank up the degree but SLOW DOWN the speed and do it longer, say 3 to 5 minutes uphill.  Depending on where you are in the program, hill training is actually best done at slower speed for about 3 minutes.  This is the way to do it as plyometric exercise.

                                 

                                Now, I know some people now likes to do a short, sharp "alactic" hill sprint.  That is fine too IF you are strong enough to handle it.  Most sub-elite runners, when they try to sprint as fast as they can for a short period, they'll struggle.  As soon as they struggle, running uphill, you'll teach your body a wrong running form.  This workout can come later--like once you would have developed a very solid aerobic foundation like some Kenyan runners. 

                                 

                                I wish i had read this post this morning. Been a while since I did hill work and i did it on a treadmill this monring. 4 x .25 miles - at 5%, 6%, 7% and finally 8% grade.  Recovered with .25 miles at 10:00 pace. For me I wasnt sprinting, but at 8:45 pace it certainly was exhausting - my normal long run pace is about 9:45. Perhaps I should go slower but longer next time.

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