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Knowing whether to cut back or plug away with marathon training (Read 253 times)

    Upcoming is my 20th marathon.  I'm 51 years old, and actually PR'd in my 17th marathon just two years ago.  After a year of triathlon training, I trained last winter/spring for a marathon in May, and although I felt really good about my chances, had a disastrous performance.  I took a short time off and began training again in June.  Over the past month or more, my recovery runs are all almost 1  minute slower than any time in the past.  I don't seem to have the energy to complete two hard workouts in one week.  My legs are feeling very fatigued.

     

    I've taken a recovery week, where I reduced my average mileage in half, but I'm not coming out of the fatigue.

     

    I've got my marathon on November 3 (not NY), and I have about 7 weeks left.  Should I take a whole week off to try to gain my "bounce" back or should I keep plugging away slowly and hope that a three week taper (with less mileage but maintaining some intensity) will do the trick?

     

    The only "successful" runs I've been doing have been weekend marathon pace runs.  Last Sunday, I ran 15 miles, with the last 14 @ my goal marathon pace. Although I maintained my goal pace, I didn't feel that I could ever maintain that pace for the entire distance.

    CMJHawk86


      Tough call. I'm not far behind you in age and I sometimes wonder if I'm about to hit an age-related performance drop. I hope not, and have factored more recovery time into my training this cycle in order to get more out of my quality workouts. Will it work? Time will tell. But I do feel better this fall than I did this past spring when I definitely got fatigued using Hansons to train for Boston (I am using a tailored McMillan plan now).

       

      Sounds to me like you may be in an overtraining/fatigue situation. Taking a full recovery week is worth a shot. That said, it could be that from a fatigue standpoint you are too far gone to run optimally in November. Not trying to be pessimistic but you've asked a lot of your body...it happened to me in 2010 training for NYC. I ran Boston and PRed that spring, felt great after it and kept going through summer 5k races. I was on a roll, why stop? Well, in late summer the performances inevitably started slipping and marathon training was a slog. I got to New York, and finished but was 10 minutes off my PR.

       

      So I would say take the recovery week, then plug away and hope for the best.

      ymmv


        I'm presumptuous to offer any advice to someone so much faster than me, but I like to believe that an important part of marathon training is getting to where I am tired, sore, demoralized, full of self-doubt, and wanting to cut back. The purpose being to preview and prepare me for the last 10K of the race.


        Feeling the growl again

          Upcoming is my 20th marathon.  I'm 51 years old, and actually PR'd in my 17th marathon just two years ago.  After a year of triathlon training, I trained last winter/spring for a marathon in May, and although I felt really good about my chances, had a disastrous performance.  I took a short time off and began training again in June.  Over the past month or more, my recovery runs are all almost 1  minute slower than any time in the past.  I don't seem to have the energy to complete two hard workouts in one week.  My legs are feeling very fatigued.

           

          I've taken a recovery week, where I reduced my average mileage in half, but I'm not coming out of the fatigue.

           

          I've got my marathon on November 3 (not NY), and I have about 7 weeks left.  Should I take a whole week off to try to gain my "bounce" back or should I keep plugging away slowly and hope that a three week taper (with less mileage but maintaining some intensity) will do the trick?

           

          The only "successful" runs I've been doing have been weekend marathon pace runs.  Last Sunday, I ran 15 miles, with the last 14 @ my goal marathon pace. Although I maintained my goal pace, I didn't feel that I could ever maintain that pace for the entire distance.

           

          You sound to be in a dangerous position.  A minute a mile slow on easy runs is a pretty major slow-down.

           

          Are you doing MP runs like that every weekend?  And are these MARATHON EFFORT or at goal MP?

           

          In the midst of regular training, 14-15 miles at goal MP is a major, major effort.  I don't even recommend most people attempt that, ever.  Couple that you are already feeling bad and you are really playing with fire here.  I hope this isn't an every week type of thing for sure.

           

          If I were you I'd start by taking a significant cut in mileage.  Pretty drastic.  If you are bordering on over-training, you're not going to gain much if anything from mileage now at this point.  By continuing regular, faster workouts, you will keep the conditioning you have -- or perhaps even sharpen it, if you aren't already too far gone.  Throw in some good strides a couple times a week to keep the snap in your legs without tiring you.

           

          It takes a lot to build conditioning.  It takes a lot, lot less to simply maintain it for a few weeks.  So you can recover without really losing anything, and potentially gain a lot by digging yourself out of a hole.

           

          MTA:  I was in a similar position once.  I was starting to get inconsistent, especially with longer workouts, but was still managing to hit most of them.  I even managed to run a great 10K PR a month out from my goal marathon.  But a week later I convinced myself I too needed to run one of those 15-mile runs at goal MP.  I managed to do it, but my body crashed.  Even taking it easy from there to the marathon it was too late, I did manage I PR that still stands but I was a good 5-7 minutes off of where I should have been had I skipped that one overly long/hard workout and cut back earlier.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

          I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

           

          spinach


            I was in a pretty similar background as you.  I PR-ed in my 28th marathon at the age of 52, although i am hoping to PR again in two weeks at age 56 in my 46th marathon.  One thing I have learned in my old age is to take frequent easy weeks during my training.  i may take the week off entirely, or ! may reduce my mileage from 50-60 down to 10 -15 just to give my legs some rest.  I need it and i don't think it hurts my race performance at all.  i would suggest you take a very easy week now to give your legs some rest.  At the beginning of September my legs felt tired, so I had a very easy week and now my legs feel much better and my 5k time is a bit faster than it was at the end of August and I feel i am in pretty good shape for the upcoming marathon.

             

            Good luck

              After a brief glance at your log I don't think the issue is mileage.  Looks like your peak is around 50 MPW and you've ran some 20-30 mile weeks lately.  Usually 40 MPW is about the minimum mileage an experienced marathoner will run per week.  I wouldn't up your mileage but you should be able to handle 40 MPW easily.

               

              My guess is your speed training and marathon pace workouts are too intense leaving you wiped out the rest of the week.   Back off on the pace of your speed workouts and like Spaniel said cut way back on the marathon pace distance.

              stadjak


              Interval Junkie --Nobby

                The only "successful" runs I've been doing have been weekend marathon pace runs.  Last Sunday, I ran 15 miles, with the last 14 @ my goal marathon pace. Although I maintained my goal pace, I didn't feel that I could ever maintain that pace for the entire distance.

                 

                Wow, that's quite an effort for training.  I don't think any plan I've read calls for that.  Most I ever do is 8 @ MP, and that's part of a shorter tempo run -- and that's the max of the MP miles.  What plan are you following?  And is this a plan you've done before?

                2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do


                Sultan of slug

                  I trained last winter/spring for a marathon in May[...]  I took a short time off and began training again in June.  

                   

                  That's not really a proper break. Marathon training is intense. Your body needs a serious break afterwards: A few weeks of very, very light running and then several more weeks of taking it easy - i.e. not anything you could call "training."

                   

                  Frankly, even just the title of this post answers your question. If you have to ask, back it off. As others have said, a week of 10-15 miles, or even 0 miles, could do wonders for you, and you've got plenty of time before your race to "make up for it" (if you insist on thinking about it like that). Since you posted this, I think you know the answer; it's just that you're a runner, so you're stubborn and tenacious and want to keep running Smile

                    Wow, that's quite an effort for training.  I don't think any plan I've read calls for that.  Most I ever do is 8 @ MP, and that's part of a shorter tempo run -- and that's the max of the MP miles.  What plan are you following?  And is this a plan you've done before?

                     

                    I know Pfitzinger's plans call for 18 miles with 14 at MP about 5 weeks out from the goal race. It's a tough workout, one of a few MP long runs in the plan. I just ran that particular workout last weekend. In the midst of training, they should leave you feeling that (at the moment) it would be difficult to complete a marathon at that pace, but also confident that the pace is in your wheelhouse. There is taper and rest on the way, and the race day energy as well.

                     

                    Mahanska, I don't have any great advice to offer, I'd be out of my element. But if the race is meaningful to you, I'd keep after it for the next few weeks, re-evaluate your energy level, if no improvement, call it off. Find some cross training you enjoy and pursue that for a season or two. Then, slowly build back into a running schedule if that prospect still excites you.

                     

                    Best of luck.

                    lagwagon


                      mahanska,

                       

                      you're an experienced runner, you know yourself and know this is not "normal" for you.

                       

                      my advice is to skip your tempo run today (or maybe replace it with a swim), and skip your long run altogether this weekend.  basically take a long weekend off, and see how you feel mon/tues.  i've done this (recently) and it helped me.

                       

                      also think about your diet, make sure youre not chronically depleted (glycogen, iron, vit B, caffiene etc).  might not be a bad time to have labs done if its been a while.

                       

                      your marathon will be decided by your cumulative training.  you have to make it to the starting line in one piece though.  take it a bit easy on yourself, its just running.

                        Thank you for all the input!

                         

                        All of your advice says to back off, and the type A in me is resisting (what a fool I am).

                         

                        I already ran the tempo run this afternoon before reading these responses.  Completed it successfully (3.5 miles at LT).

                         

                        I know I should back off, but I might still try this long run this Sunday.  It calls for 2 hours at easy pace, followed by 50 minutes at marathon pace.

                         

                        I'm using a training plan that I have successfully used before called the "Marathon Zone" plan, thought up by Guy Avery in Marathon and Beyond magazine back in September-December 2006.  You can search for it online.

                         

                        The plan even calls for 1 more marathon pace run of 17 miles.  I was planning on running it 4 weeks out from the marathon.

                         

                        I'm going to re-read everyone's post to try to convince myself to cut down though.  I'm too damn stubborn. Undecided


                        Feeling the growl again

                          Thank you for all the input!

                           

                          All of your advice says to back off, and the type A in me is resisting (what a fool I am).

                           

                          I already ran the tempo run this afternoon before reading these responses.  Completed it successfully (3.5 miles at LT).

                           

                          I know I should back off, but I might still try this long run this Sunday.  It calls for 2 hours at easy pace, followed by 50 minutes at marathon pace.

                           

                          I'm using a training plan that I have successfully used before called the "Marathon Zone" plan, thought up by Guy Avery in Marathon and Beyond magazine back in September-December 2006.  You can search for it online.

                           

                          The plan even calls for 1 more marathon pace run of 17 miles.  I was planning on running it 4 weeks out from the marathon.

                           

                          I'm going to re-read everyone's post to try to convince myself to cut down though.  I'm too damn stubborn. Undecided

                           

                          Your "coach" is a moron.  Please don't listen to him.  I hesitate to be so harsh, but that is seriously out of whack.  Perhaps Ryan Hall or Meb or Haile G can handle a workout like that, but a masters athlete running 30-50 mpw has no business attempting such a workout.

                           

                          You will be virtually guaranteed to leave your race on the training route.

                           

                          Just like the best way to break a 4 minute mile is not to run closer and closer to a mile at 4min pace each workout, the best way to train for a marathon is not to keep running MP closer and closer to the race distance.  You do all the pieces and then on race day put them together.

                           

                          I used to run pretty well in the marathon and I almost never used MP runs in training...maybe one 10-miler per cycle.

                           

                          MTA:  Perhaps your "coach" is not a moron, but doing 17 miles at MP (untapered??) for a 50-something athlete with a 3:17 PR running 30-50mpw....something here is out-of-line, somewhere in the equation.  And I still question the wisdom of 99% of athletes tackling a 17-18 mile MP run in training, as I looked him up to recommend...for the 80-100mpw athlete.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           

                          I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                           

                          dennrunner


                             

                             

                             

                            You will be virtually guaranteed to leave your race on the training route.

                             

                             

                            just emphasizing.

                              Point taken.

                               

                              I'll definitely reconsider.


                              Feeling the growl again

                                Point taken.

                                 

                                I'll definitely reconsider.

                                 

                                Big grin

                                 

                                Best of luck!

                                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                                 

                                I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                                 

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