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| long run pace question (Read 760 times) |
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posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:00 PM |
Hi guys. A fellow Cool Runner from Cool Running here. This is my first post on this board. I have a question about my long run pace that I would like some opinions on. My 5-K race pace averages 6:25 and 10-K around 7:00-7:20. My long runs are around 10 miles and L/T runs around 7:45 for 5-6 miles. I am currently running my long runs at a pace of around 8:15-8:20 for the 10 miles. Does this sound too fast? I arrived at this time just by where my race paces are and overall feeling of exertion while doing the long runs. I am a seasoned runner of several years and weekly mileage of around 20-30 miles depending on schedule. I am 40, very busy with 2 boys, and do my best to get in a long run, tempo, and speedwork session in a week. I am usually able to squeeze a couple of recovery runs between easy enough. The speedwork usually consists of either 10-12 repeat 200`s at about 6:00 minutes per mile, or 8-10 400`s at 6:10-6:20 pace. This is just the way I have done it 8-10 weeks before each racing season.
The main reason I ask, some weeks I get really dead legs, and I also feel I need more than one rest day to fully recover. I have tried slowing things to say 8:30 pace for the long runs, but just really weares me out. I feel much more comfortable in the 8:15-8:20 range. Could it just be my 40 year old body needs more recover time?
Thanks guys for your opinions. I look forward to posting over here now.  |
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| view log Ball Tongue |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:02 PM
modified: 3/28/2008 at 8:05 PM |
| Quote from jkw0989 on 3/28/2008 at 8:00 PM: I am currently running my long runs at a pace of around 8:15-8:20 for the 10 miles. Does this sound too fast?
Could it just be my 40 year old body needs more recover time?
IMHO no, and yes.
Oh, and welcome. |
| The Gaijin Samurai. a.k.a The attorney dissin' attorney.
Read and Listen
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| view log Playmaker / nemesis |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:23 PM
modified: 3/28/2008 at 8:24 PM |
Just a couple of comments:
1. There's a pretty big gap between your 5k and 10k paces. If you were well-trained for both, there'd be about 16~20 sec between them. Which distance have you raced most recently?
2. If you're doing 6:25 pace for 5k, your L/T pace for 20 minute tempo runs should be around 6:51/mi. For extended tempo runs of 30~60 minutes, appropriate tempo paces go from 7:00~7:15. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 7:45 pace, but it's too slow to do anything for your L/T.
3. Your long run pace is great at 8:15~8:20. Also anything slower is fine, so go with what's comfortable.
Overall, your training looks great. Don't get too caught up in the paces I mentioned -- I only bring them up because, well, that's what I do.
Training paces from this running calculator based on Daniels' VDOT.
As far as the tired legs, consider this: Do a long run every other week. On you LR weeks, do only one quality session (tempo or interval). On your non long run weeks, 2 quality sessions are fine. I think the combination of LR and 2 quality sessions might be causing your dead legs. |
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20 |25k: 1:35:59
21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00
What are you doing? |
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posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:34 PM |
Hey, thanks to you both for your opinions. The 10-K pace probably could be faster, I haven`t done one since last September, and I know for a fact that I went out for the first 5-K too slow. I will definately consider moving to ever other week for the long-runs, just to see what happens to the legs. Interesting thought on the threshold pace. I haven`t really considered the calculations. Just speeding those up those few seconds and moving to every other week on the LR, I might even pick up a few seconds on the 5-K pace!
Thanks again for your .02 guys! |
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| view log formerly RacingThoughts |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:55 PM
modified: 3/28/2008 at 9:00 PM |
Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/28/2008 at 8:23 PM:Just a couple of comments: 1. There's a pretty big gap between your 5k and 10k paces. If you were well-trained for both, there'd be about 16~20 sec between them. Which distance have you raced most recently? 2. If you're doing 6:25 pace for 5k, your L/T pace for 20 minute tempo runs should be around 6:51/mi. For extended tempo runs of 30~60 minutes, appropriate tempo paces go from 7:00~7:15. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 7:45 pace, but it's too slow to do anything for your L/T. 3. Your long run pace is great at 8:15~8:20. Also anything slower is fine, so go with what's comfortable. Overall, your training looks great. Don't get too caught up in the paces I mentioned -- I only bring them up because, well, that's what I do. Training paces from this running calculator based on Daniels' VDOT. As far as the tired legs, consider this: Do a long run every other week. On you LR weeks, do only one quality session (tempo or interval). On your non long run weeks, 2 quality sessions are fine. I think the combination of LR and 2 quality sessions might be causing your dead legs.
I wonder why that calculator has different (faster) values than this VDOT calculator...  For my 5K PR of 21:38, runworks says 8:53 for easy pace (which seems a little fast to me), runbayou says 9:17 (which is the closer to the non-event specific VDOT tables in the 2nd edition).
runworks: "Calculations are based on data from Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels PhD."
runbayou: "This calculator uses the VDOT tables found in Jack Daniels', Running Formula, 2nd Edition"
Don't have my book handy, anyone know what the difference is? Did his recommended paces get slower in the 2nd edition?
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| view log Ball Tongue |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 8:56 PM |
Quote from Dustin on 3/28/2008 at 8:55 PM:I wonder why that calculator has different (faster) values than this VDOT calculator... runworks: "Calculations are based on data from Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels PhD." runbayou: "This calculator uses the VDOT tables found in Jack Daniels', Running Formula, 2nd Edition" Don't have my book handy, anyone know what the difference is? Did his recommended paces get slower in the 2nd edition?
I think he drank some Jack Daniels Old No 2 and naturally slowed down.  |
| The Gaijin Samurai. a.k.a The attorney dissin' attorney.
Read and Listen
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| view log Hawt and sexy |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:03 PM |
| I do my training runs at about 2 and a half minutes slower than my marathon pace (just how it has ended up in the past). I view most pace calculators as aggressive for training paces. If your body is telling you to slow down, just go slower. No biggie. Now, keep in mind that I am part of the MAF trainers from CR, so for some, that makes me an evil-doer. Oh, and I am still happily getting faster, so don't let peeps talk you into believing that you will not improve by going slower without trying it yourself. Just sayin'. |
| All your base are belong to us. |
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| view log Playmaker / nemesis |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:12 PM |
Quote from DJ Marcus on 3/28/2008 at 8:56 PM:I think he drank some Jack Daniels Old No 2 and naturally slowed down.
C'mon, it's old No. 7. If you're gonna go to the old Jack Daniel's joke, at least get it right. 
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20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20 |25k: 1:35:59
21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00
What are you doing? |
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| view log Ball Tongue |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:14 PM
modified: 3/28/2008 at 9:14 PM |
Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/28/2008 at 9:12 PM:C'mon, it's old No. 7. If you're gonna go to the old Jack Daniel's joke, at least get it right.
DAMN
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| The Gaijin Samurai. a.k.a The attorney dissin' attorney.
Read and Listen
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| view log Playmaker / nemesis |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:19 PM |
| Quote from DJ Marcus on 3/28/2008 at 9:14 PM: DAMN
As "punishment", you need to pick up a bottle of Old No. 7 tonight and study it inside and out. Repeatedly.
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20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20 |25k: 1:35:59
21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00
What are you doing? |
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| view log nvm '08 |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:30 PM |
| turn the bottle over, it looks like a '2' |
| 'Practice Winning', my 5 y.o. daughter advised me... |
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| view log Hawt and sexy |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:31 PM |
| Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/28/2008 at 9:19 PM: As "punishment", you need to pick up a bottle of Old No. 7 tonight and study it inside and out. Repeatedly.
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| All your base are belong to us. |
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| view log Playmaker / nemesis |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 9:33 PM |
| Quote from jinitom on 3/28/2008 at 9:30 PM: turn the bottle over, it looks like a '2'
Good observation. Apparently you're used to looking at bottles of Jack Daniel's from this angle?  |
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20 |25k: 1:35:59
21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00
What are you doing? |
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| view log |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 10:08 PM
modified: 3/28/2008 at 10:09 PM |
Quote from Dustin on 3/28/2008 at 8:55 PM:I wonder why that calculator has different (faster) values than this VDOT calculator... For my 5K PR of 21:38, runworks says 8:53 for easy pace (which seems a little fast to me), runbayou says 9:17 (which is the closer to the non-event specific VDOT tables in the 2nd edition). runworks: "Calculations are based on data from Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels PhD." runbayou: "This calculator uses the VDOT tables found in Jack Daniels', Running Formula, 2nd Edition" Don't have my book handy, anyone know what the difference is? Did his recommended paces get slower in the 2nd edition?
The only difference I see is in the easy pace. I have the Daniels' 2nd Ed. book in front of me and I put in 17:32 for 5k (b/c that is close to where I am and that is an exact value given in the book) and both sites match the book (within +/- 1 sec.) He gives an exact pace for everything except easy pace and there he gives a range. Both websites gave me the same pace (within 1 second +/-) for each level except for 'easy' in which Runbayou gave the slow end of the range given in the book and runworks gave an average. When I put in 21:25 (close to where you are and again b/c that is an exact value given in the book) the easy pace in the book is 8:12-8:42, but Runbayou gives 9:07 and runworks gives 8:49, but all the other paces match (+/- 1-2 sec.) I don't know why there is a difference from the book, but clearly Runbayou is going closer to the slow end of whatever range and runworks is hitting the the middle.
For what its worth I don't think you need to worry about pace to much on easy/recovery runs regardless of what it says in some book, as long as you aren't going to fast and 'racing' your easy days of course, which I think is why he gives a range in the book to begin with.
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PR's
1-Mile: 4:42 (1995)
5-K: 15:55 (1999)
10-K: 32:30 (2000)
15-K: 50:18 (2001)
1/2 Mar: 1:13:15 (2000)* 1st half of marathon listed below
Mar: 2:49 (2000) |
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| view log Playmaker / nemesis |
posted: 3/28/2008 at 10:25 PM |
| Quote from Hannibal Granite on 3/28/2008 at 10:08 PM: For what its worth I don't think you need to worry about pace to much on easy/recovery runs regardless of what it says in some book, as long as you aren't going to fast and 'racing' your easy days of course, which I think is why he gives a range in the book to begin with.
Agreed. When I see a pace calculator give a single pace for easy, I look at that as being a limit. As in easy pace should be equal to or slower than the value.
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20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20 |25k: 1:35:59
21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00
What are you doing? |
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