|
| What would YOUR ideal "intermediate" marathon training plan include? (Read 403 times) |
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 7:02 PM |
Ok, so I think I've pretty much decided that I am going to study 4-5 canned plans and cobble together something that suits my needs, schedule, and abilities. While my planned marathon in Oct. will be my first, my base mileage for about the past year has been ~30mpw (1300+ miles in '07) and I will be starting my training coming off of training for a 25k in mid-May. I plan to peak ~40-45mpw for that race. So I feel that I'm already beyond most beginner/novice plans in terms of my base training.
I've been looking at Glover's "basic competitor" plan, Pfitz's 18/55 (from Derek's Road to Boston website), Higdon's Intermediate 1, and an intermediate plan in the current issue of Her Sports + Fitness magazine.
I'm really amazed at the variety of approaches these plans take, even though they all start out at roughly the same mileage (~30mpw) and top-out in the 45-55 mpw range. Some of these plans increase the longest run up to 20 miles quite early in the plan and do more of them, some do a long run of over 20 miles before the taper, some take 2 rest days, some take 1. Some don't do one "medium" run that is at least half as long as the long run...which perplexes me, as I always was under the impression that there should be one run/week that is maybe 2/3 as long as the longest run. Some have 2 week tapers, others go for 3.
So...what I'd like to know is if you already had a solid base of 30-35mpw going into marathon training, what would your ideal plan look like (I'm especially interested in what has worked well for other mid-packers to slowpokes like me--feel free to look at my log in the past year to see what sort of training I've done)?
• # of weeks?
• Days/week running?
• # of 20 milers and how far into training?
• >20 mile runs?
• medium length runs...half distance of longest weekly run or more?
• length of taper?
|
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log Bif! Bam! Pow! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 8:12 PM |
For me....
I like the multiple repeats of the longer distance. I think it helps me a lot and also gives me a chance to still be strong if life happens. Last year I planned on 3 20 milers and got brutally sick when I was supposed to have the first one and I still had time to ramp back up and hit the last one on schedule.
I did 22 as my longest for my own comfort and I think I will again...so I will probably base my training on Higdon intermediate 2 with a 20, Hood -to -Coast weekend where the second 20 should be and a 22. I will move any run a week either direction to adjust for races or whatever.
I dont have time for midweek run of longer than 1/2 the distance usually. A 10 miler midweek is killer for me to be done by 6:45 am. I try to get the 1/2 the distance though, I think it really helps. And I have been liking this plan I am on now where I am doing ALMOST half the distance twice a week.
5 days a week suits me. I think my marriage would dislike 6 days a week. When good weather starts (aka cycling season) it is already a battle to squeeze in my 5 runs and dh's 4 bike rides a week. Last year I did 4 and I like 5 better.
I'll admit 3 week taper drove me batty and I am considering a 2week taper this time or at least a less tapered taper.
|
Beware the Pink Boxing Gloves of DOOM!
"It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds" - Captain Hammer
2008 Goals New PR's in 5K 10K HM, M
Faster than a speeding toddler..... |
|
|
| view log No one's nemesis |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 8:54 PM |
| I've been pretty happy with the Higdon Intermediate 2 plan as well Zoomie. I've tailored it here and there when needed. I just liked the fact that it had a susbtantial number of miles that if I missed some, which so far I've only missed one run that I didn't make up, it wouldn't be a big deal. I feel as though it's preparing me well. I also didn't care to do any speed work so, this plan was a good match for me. I liked the fact that it had multiple 20 milers as well. |
Rick
"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare." - Juma Ikangaa
"I wanna go fast." Ricky Bobby
runningforcassy.blogspot.com
|
|
|
| view log Resonate |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 10:59 PM
modified: 2/24/2008 at 11:00 PM |
Kirsten,
If I remember correctly from sometime mid-last year - you had some issues with doing speedwork. If this is still the case you may want to avoid the Pfitz type plans. Not only is his mileage level higher than a lot of other plans - but the intensity is there pretty much every week (except for a few weeks in the beginning) - in the form of either a tempo run or intervals.
If you do choose the Pfitz plan - I would do several things between now and the beginning of your training. Run a hard 5K (you will need this for setting your interval pace) and run a good 15K-HM. Your upcoming 25K will be good for this too. You can then use McMillan to scale this down to a 15K pace - which you will need for setting your tempo pace. I would also throw in some strides and tempo runs before your 25K to see how you feel. Strides are simple to set up on your 305 if you haven't done so yet. Also the 25K would be great for helping you decide on an initial marathon pace target.
In my opinion, the three main things in the Pfitz plan that I think drove my improvement are 1) the sheer volume of miles - most of them easy - 2) the tempo and intervals run at as close to the suggested paces as you can and 3) plenty of long runs in the form of long weekend runs and medium-long mid-week.
You've read plenty around here I'm sure about the benefits of just adding miles - I won't elaborate on them further. Regarding tempo/intervals - these drive your ability to run faster for longer and I think they have helped me a lot. I'm not sure about any 1/2 or 2/3 formula for the mid-week run - but I am huge fan of doing 10-14 mid-week even on weeks when you've got an 18 or 20 miler scheduled for the weekend. They will challenge your ability to keep running while tired and you will benefit greatly from it.
I've read Glover's plans - and I like them - but I don't know enough about the details of his plans to compare and contrast to anything else.
Regarding Higdon - I think his plans are great too - but my problem with them - at least up to Intermediate 1 is that many of the weekday runs are way too short - for me. I simply do not like the time investment of a 3-4 mile run - when you add in the getting ready time - shower time - etc. Not that they don't have value - just not for me. Having said that - I will occasionally throw in a 4 mile recovery run when I need one after a hard day - but I don't like them to be my "staple" run.
That's about it for my opinions on training plans. Yes - I'm biased towards Pfitz. But all of the rest have lots of merit - I've read many of them - except Lydiard (just haven't found any of his older books at reasonable price yet) - but only have actual experience with Pfitz.
So to your specific questions:
# of weeks: 12-24 weeks. 16-18 seems to be a good middle ground. I found 12 to be great for my last one - 18 was okay for my first one. I think 24 is a long time to be that focused on a marathon training program.
Days/week running: Some like to run every day. Me - not so much. My body likes 1-2 rest days per week.
# of 20 milers: As long as you get a couple or three in - the specific timing of them is not as important. Get the last one done 3-4 weeks before your marathon.
>20 mile runs: I don't see much value in runs more than 20 miles - especially for beginners. The recovery time outweighs the benefits. Having said that - I did run a 22 miler this time - but it was more an accident than a plan though.
length of taper: I would just do whatever your plan advises. |
Mike | Current Training Plan
Out near the edge where life is in full color. |
|
|
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:04 PM |
| Quote from Ennay on 2/24/2008 at 8:12 PM: 5 days a week suits me. I think my marriage would dislike 6 days a week. When good weather starts (aka cycling season) it is already a battle to squeeze in my 5 runs and dh's 4 bike rides a week. Last year I did 4 and I like 5 better.
This is EXACTLY the situation we have. did's cycling sessions are going to increase in time and frequency and his big goal ride is just a few weeks after my marathon--so I'm thinking 6 runs/week would be a bit difficult (as much as I'd like to be able to keep my miles higher and make myself that much better trained for race day). I guess I can always plan for 5 and toss in an extra short run when time allows. 5 runs/week would allow me more flexibility, too...weather, family stuff, kid, etc.
I'm also definitely going to plan to do at least 3 20 milers, I think...for the reasons you guys have already stated. 1 22 miler might be smart, too...assuming the 20s don't kill me. I know the wall often happens for people (if it happens) ~20. I'd like to be able to know what to expect with that as well as know that I have run all but 4.2 miles of my ultimate goal in training...for every other distance I've raced I've always run *at least* the full distance *at least* once in training. While this is not really feasible for marathon training, I'd like to get damned close for my own peace of mind. |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:15 PM |
| Quote from Bonkin on 2/24/2008 at 10:59 PM: Kirsten,
If I remember correctly from sometime mid-last year - you had some issues with doing speedwork. If this is still the case you may want to avoid the Pfitz type plans. Not only is his mileage level higher than a lot of other plans - but the intensity is there pretty much every week (except for a few weeks in the beginning) - in the form of either a tempo run or intervals.
If you do choose the Pfitz plan - I would do several things between now and the beginning of your training. Run a hard 5K (you will need this for setting your interval pace) and run a good 15K-HM. Your upcoming 25K will be good for this too. You can then use McMillan to scale this down to a 15K pace - which you will need for setting your tempo pace. I would also throw in some strides and tempo runs before your 25K to see how you feel. Strides are simple to set up on your 305 if you haven't done so yet. Also the 25K would be great for helping you decide on an initial marathon pace target.
Regarding Higdon - I think his plans are great too - but my problem with them - at least up to Intermediate 1 is that many of the weekday runs are way too short - for me. I simply do not like the time investment of a 3-4 mile run - when you add in the getting ready time - shower time - etc. Not that they don't have value - just not for me. Having said that - I will occasionally throw in a 4 mile recovery run when I need one after a hard day - but I don't like them to be my "staple" run.
Ahh...yeah, I remember my speedwork issues from last Spring. In retrospect I think most of my issues were from my shoes...not a bad shoe, per se, but it seems that my feet like the flexibility of my lightweight trainers and my stiffer shoes made my arches fight the shoe...and then the tendonitis set-in. I'm definitely going to ease into speedwork this Spring and hope that my theory holds up.
Prior to starting training for the marathon I have 2 15ks, a 10 miler, and a 25k...I loathe 5ks, but maybe I should consider registering for one. Or simply do a "virtual race," seeing as how I have my Garmin and it wouldn't be difficult to do one on my own for a ballpark pace estimate.
I noticed the short run thing with Higdon, too. I agree that if I'm going to go to the work of getting dressed, stretching, etc. that I'd like to do at least 4-5. It takes me 2-3 just to warm up, so anything less than 4-5 is just no fun and hardly seems worth the hassle.
There are definitely things I like about each plan I look at and things I don't like. I will probably cherry-pick a bit, but right now am thinking that each week I'd like to have 2 easy/short/recovery runs, 1 speedwork/hills, 1 medium length run, 1 long...increasing my mileage no more than 10% from week-to-week and scaling back maybe 25% every 3rd to 4th week to give myself time to recover well.
|
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log Resonate |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:22 PM |
| Quote from zoom-zoom on 2/24/2008 at 11:15 PM: I will probably cherry-pick a bit, but right now am thinking that each week I'd like to have 2 easy/short/recovery runs, 1 speedwork/hills, 1 medium length run, 1 long...increasing my mileage no more than 10% from week-to-week and scaling back maybe 25% every 3rd to 4th week to give myself time to recover well.
Anything close to this will be a great plan. The rest are just details. And I forgot to mention the hills that you brought up. This time I did one or two specific hill runs early on. But then decided to include as many hills into nearly all of my longer runs for the rest of the plan. I think this helped a lot too. |
Mike | Current Training Plan
Out near the edge where life is in full color. |
|
|
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:25 PM |
| Quote from Bonkin on 2/24/2008 at 11:22 PM: Anything close to this will be a great plan. The rest are just details. And I forgot to mention the hills that you brought up. This time I did one or two specific hill runs early on. But then decided to include as many hills into nearly all of my longer runs for the rest of the plan. I think this helped a lot too.
If I drive just a short way north of us there are some nice rural roads with good hills, so that is definitely an option for me and it would be nice to do some of my longer runs with some newer scenery (though that means driving home--ow). I like hills. I like speedwork. |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log Bif! Bam! Pow! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:38 PM |
Oh yeah...I forgot about hills or not hills. I dont even think about hills because anytime I go long I go rolling hills...nature of where I live. And in the summer when it is light out I'll have a hilly run as one of my midweeks. Even my flat easy runs are hilly by some standards.
Plus my HTC team trains on HILLY trails once a week starting in April or may...whenever it dries out. It is not a particularly long run ~ 4.5 but it is hilly and we run it fast for my pace. I call it hills and speedwork all rolled in to one.
I forgot the plans go back down to 3 milers...I dont see doing that just because my base is higher. I usually go 4-6 on the short ones, but I am hard pressed to get above 8-10 for the middle ones. I think we talked before ...I'll probably start the training program at week 4 or 6 and repeat a few weeks. This time around I do plan on some kind of speedwork every other week probably
|
Beware the Pink Boxing Gloves of DOOM!
"It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds" - Captain Hammer
2008 Goals New PR's in 5K 10K HM, M
Faster than a speeding toddler..... |
|
|
| view log nvm '08 |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:55 PM |
| I think the most important thing to include in any marathon training plan is companionship. Do you have any running clubs in your area that sponsor a marathon training program? Even if you don't, just having someone else or several others who are in it with you helps immeasurably. |
| 'Practice Winning', my 5 y.o. daughter advised me... |
|
|
Mizzou-rah Tigers! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:57 PM |
Hey K,
As a first time marathon trainer myself, I have no real advice. I like to think my made-up combo plan is working for me, but I guess I won't really know until race day...or maybe not even until I train for the next one that I realize what I could have done different or better. I just wanted to say that you're incredibly prepared and have a whole lot of support from everyone on this site. Whatever plan you pick, you're going to rock it!!!! Woo Hoo!!! 
Sara |
|
|
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/24/2008 at 11:58 PM |
I am a member of a small running club, but it seems that the members are either VERY fast or very slow and only run on Sat. AMs. I have a friend who is in the club with me and runs about at my pace, but she rarely runs longer than 10 miles and is an attorney, so she's only available to run on weekends. I will most likely be doing my long runs on Fridays, easy recovery on Sat. and off on Sun, since that is when DH usually does his long bike rides with a group.
But I don't mind running alone. I've logged precious few of my miles in the past 2 years with company, other than my iPod. I don't mind so much. I may start getting some audiobooks to load on my iPod for entertainment...something different from hours of music. |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log October 5...Freak Out! |
posted: 2/25/2008 at 12:00 AM |
Quote from sholtsman on 2/24/2008 at 11:57 PM:Hey K, As a first time marathon trainer myself, I have no real advice. I like to think my made-up combo plan is working for me, but I guess I won't really know until race day...or maybe not even until I train for the next one that I realize what I could have done different or better. I just wanted to say that you're incredibly prepared and have a whole lot of support from everyone on this site. Whatever plan you pick, you're going to rock it!!!! Woo Hoo!!! Sara
Thanks, girl! Ditto to you w/re: to rocking your first 26.2, as well! 
And ITA about the support here. There is no way I would have stuck with running, much less ever contemplated a marathon without this bunch. 2 years ago if someone had told me I'd be where I am today I'd have told them to put down the crack pipe.  |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• October 5 - 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
|
|
| view log Resonate |
posted: 2/25/2008 at 12:08 AM |
Quote from sholtsman on 2/24/2008 at 11:57 PM:Hey K, As a first time marathon trainer myself, I have no real advice. I like to think my made-up combo plan is working for me, but I guess I won't really know until race day...or maybe not even until I train for the next one that I realize what I could have done different or better. I just wanted to say that you're incredibly prepared and have a whole lot of support from everyone on this site. Whatever plan you pick, you're going to rock it!!!! Woo Hoo!!! Sara
It definitely looks like its working for you. Nice 20 miler yesterday - followed up with an 8 miler. Awesome. Those are the kind of weekends that will toughen you up plenty. I'm with Kirsten - you're gonna rock your marathon in April. |
Mike | Current Training Plan
Out near the edge where life is in full color. |
|
|
| view log |
posted: 2/25/2008 at 1:54 AM |
| My plan would include an H, a T, an F, and a U. |
a vagabond,..highway-beater; a rolling stone, one that does nought but runne here and there.
~Cotgrave, Randle A dictionarie of the French and English tongues, 1611
|
|
|
|
|
