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Slow Down (Read 1910 times)

Scout7


    I haven't weighed in on this recently, so what the hey.... JK, I'm sure you remember our discussions about training and all that sort of stuff from a few months ago. That was where the debate was on doing 400m repeats and such. A lot of those same principles apply to this conversation, too. To me, it boils down to a couple different things: Goals, commitment, enjoyment. My goals are not the same as others, so I train based on my goals. I have "A" races, and I have "B" and "C" races. I taper for "A" races, I have specific training set up for those races. The others are training races. I want to do more marathons, and would like to do an ultra. So my training is going to be different than your local 5k'er. Also, my schedule is different than other people's. So I run based on what I feel I can reasonably fit in without hurting my work or personal life. Also, if I don't enjoy it, I won't stick with it. At some point, my competitive nature gets the better of me and forces me out to do something really silly, but even then, I have some level of perverse enjoyment. Ultimately, though, I think a lot of the debate is akin to philosophy. Some of the stuff works for some, some of the stuff works for others. Even among the elites, there's no set formula for success, just some generalities. I will say this much. LSD !+ "Long Slow Distance". LSD = "Long STEADY Distance". That means holding a steady pace for the length of the run as best you can. That's really the goal. Semantics is a big issue. I once got into a big debate on another board with a coach because what he called a "strength" workout, I considered a "speed" workout. We had never bothered to define terms ahead of time.
    Scout7


      Oh, and ExPhysRunner is one of the better posters on RWOL. The guy who claims he's a Level 3 coach is an a-hole and an idiot. One of the BEST sites for training information and discussion is Jim2's website. He posts on RWOL, RT, and a couple others, and has saved a number of threads related to various topics. Here's the address: http://mysite.verizon.net/jim2wr/index.html Check it out if you get the chance.
        Yes--that's right, but perhaps that's because speed is your area of weakness.
        Trust me - there's no perhaps involved at all. It's definitely my area of weakness. Smile Well, speed and chocolate chips.

        Go to http://certainintelligence.blogspot.com for my blog.

        dillydoodles


          This is a very interesting discussion, however, Trent's original post "Slow Down" simply included a link to a post aimed at new runners ... "Please Newbies--do yourselves a favor--SLOW it down. Run--walk--skip--relax--have fun. I read so many posts that folks are working way too hard: doing too much--too soon--too fast." As many have said there is no definitive right way to train that applies to everybody. As a new runner, I am drawn to information that sounds like it can help me in my newbiness. I've read a number of articles by Joe Henderson that sound logical to me. Here are a few of his quotes that I like... "Life is complicated, so run to escape the complexity instead of adding to it. Keep your training simple, low tech, and low key. Training simply balances three needs: long, fast, and easy. Train long enough (but at a slower pace) to prepare for your longest race, fast enough (but at a shorter distance) to match the speed of your shortest race, and easy enough (many days of this) to recover between your hard runs. Limit the hard days to one a week-be they long, fast, or races. This is all that most of us can tolerate or can fit into life's schedule." -- Joe Henderson "Runners typically begin with fitness goals, reach them and graduate to chasing racing goals, and then finally advance to a goal of running to keep running. Fitness and racing aren't abandoned at that final stage but become byproducts." -- Joe Henderson "Make today's run a good one. Make sure you finish wanting to and being able to come back for another, and tomorrow's run will take care of itself. The running life is a pacing exercise, just as a run or race is. One day in the life of a runner is like one step in a marathon, a year is like a mile. Don't do anything in the short term that puts this long run at risk. All that lasts in running is the lasting." -- Joe Henderson Everyone is wired differently. The, "Go hard or go home" attitude appeals to many. So does the motto, "Live hard, die young." Well I'm no longer young. My motto now is to "Live well", and for me that means not getting hurt so I can keep running, LOL! If I had to run hard every time I ran I'd throw in the towel and go back to walking. For others, telling them to do anything less than their best on every single run is an insult. Vive le difference! Thanks for keeping things interesting Smile ~ Arlene
          JakeKnight


            To me, it boils down to a couple different things: Goals, commitment, enjoyment. My goals are not the same as others, so I train based on my goals ... So I run based on what I feel I can reasonably fit in without hurting my work or personal life. Also, if I don't enjoy it, I won't stick with it. At some point, my competitive nature gets the better of me and forces me out to do something really silly, but even then, I have some level of perverse enjoyment... Ultimately, though, I think a lot of the debate is akin to philosophy. Some of the stuff works for some, some of the stuff works for others. Even among the elites, there's no set formula for success, just some generalities.
            The above quote is my new personal motto. Maybe I'll get it tattoo'd somewhere. And for the record, just to be contrary I went out and ran hard enough to have my first post-run puke this morning, and found it "perversely enjoyable." Nice phrase, that. So good I'm quoting it again:
            Ultimately, though, I think a lot of the debate is akin to philosophy. Some of the stuff works for some, some of the stuff works for others. Even among the elites, there's no set formula for success, just some generalities.

            E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
            -----------------------------

            Scout7


              I feel oddly honored now. Nothing wrong with the good ol' RTYP runs. Although, I usually save that for races.


              Why is it sideways?

                For others, telling them to do anything less than their best on every single run is an insult.
                Not to keep patting us on our collective backs, but that's what I like about this board; most other boards rapidly (and rabidly) degenerate into one group of runners insulting another group of runners by telling them what their goals in life/running should be--without getting to know them first. I imagine that what "our best" on every single run is varies according to our relationship with running. Is running a strategy of living well? Then "our best" means incorporating running into the rest of our life activities. Is running about breaking the world record? Then "our best" will probably require subordinating the rest of our lives to that goal. Most of us have riches too great in those other parts of our lives to sacrifice them entirely to running. That's why a conversation about running can't proceed purely in the realm of running--it must take into account our other activities, our personal histories. After all, we're human beings, not running machines strapped to treadmills (except for Sabershooter). Speaking of getting to know people well, why does it not surprise me that JK was inspired to run 'til he puked by a thread entitled "Slow Down"? By the way, in case you're interested, Scout7's description of philosophy (and JK's new tattoo) is very similar to William James' attitude towards philosophy (my old avatar). It's what we in the biz call pragmatism--a typically American style of philosophy. The new avatar is Gilles Deleuze--contemporary French philosopher, metaphysician of experience.
                Scout7


                  Speaking of getting to know people well, why does it not surprise me that JK was inspired to run 'til he puked by a thread entitled "Slow Down"? By the way, in case you're interested, Scout7's description of philosophy (and JK's new tattoo) is very similar to William James' attitude towards philosophy (my old avatar). It's what we in the biz call pragmatism--a typically American style of philosophy.
                  No, not surprised. Hey, you take that back!! Oh, wait.....I don't think I'm being insulted this time. Yeah, pragmatic....That's pretty much me. I had an English teacher tell me I was dead inside because I said that the space on the wall taken up by a piece of art would be better served with some shelves or another light fixture. And I love the fact that you call it "the biz".
                  Wingz


                  Professional Noob

                    I would have to agree with the generality that new runners tend to train too hard/too fast. The first half dozen or so times I tried to run I wound with runner's knee and quit running. So I went overboard in the other direction this time around, and it's allowed me to run relatively pain-free for 1 1/4 years now. My old record was about 3 weeks. So I'm a big fan of training slow. I also found out, though, that there is a happy medium between too slow and too fast. I started out too fast. That didn't work. Then I did too slow for a year or so. That kept me from getting hurt, but it also meant I really didn't see much improvement in my times during my first year of running. Now I'm trying to find a happy balance of a slightly challenging pace that will continue to let me run injury-free but will give more training benefit. Coming from the perspective of a newer runner who's been training too easy (and yes, I've learned that is indeed possible), it's been a bit of a challenge adapting to, say, what McMillan suggests for pace for my "easy" runs. I had had a slight semantics issue as well... "Easy" was to me like walking-your-kids-to-the-bus-stop kind of "easy" and what McMillan suggests as "easy" I would describe as "working it." LOL - what Claire would describe as "working it" I think I would probably describe as an all-out-sprint!!! So this year, when I'm recording a run as "easy", I've given myself a new definition. I'm going by McMillan's pace calculator says my pace for "easy" should be, and if my pace is near that pace, I'm calling it "easy." I can still talk... but it's a significantly higher effort level than what I was used to. When I'm running at the effort level I used to call "easy," I've decided to now call them "recovery" runs. They are genuinely easy to me... Wink Just not "easy" in the runner's sense. I suspect I'll be seeing some good gains in my speed this second year. I hope eventually to get a better grasp of the balance between pushing myself too hard and not hard enough. I think there is a balance.

                    Roads were made for journeys...

                      By the way, in case you're interested, Scout7's description of philosophy (and JK's new tattoo) is very similar to William James' attitude towards philosophy (my old avatar). It's what we in the biz call pragmatism--a typically American style of philosophy. The new avatar is Gilles Deleuze--contemporary French philosopher, metaphysician of experience.
                      Running for my college (small school), we had a good cross country team but a pretty horrible track team compared to the rest of our conference, with a bare bones squad with only a couple sprinters and field eventers thrown in. Completely ragtag. So not being able to win track meets, we just had to take our small victories where we could get them... Anyway, when we were voting team T-shirt ideas, most of the designs had inspirational quotes, quotes challenging taunting other teams, and the like. My favorite (didn't win the vote) would have had the name of our team on the front and, across the back: "Pragmatism."
                        Slow down. OK I get it……………… I think. But like Jake I too am confused and have questions. However unlike Jake I have no problems with some of the gadgets as in heart monitors. (Jake is there anything you like?) I have been running my heart rate. Lately I have been really paying attention and adjusting my pace to more closely match my target HR. Using the standard 220-age x%=Target I have found it incorrect for me. First that formula has me with a max of 167. Well I KNOW that my max is higher than that. Last night with a quarter mile left in the run I started picking up the pace, with about 125 meters left I ran as hard as I could (still moving slower than a 110 year old tortes I use to have). At the finish my HRM read 177. This tact has increased my ability to run my planned distance without needing to walk. At any rate this has slowed down my runs. My question is this. Will my times improve as my body gets into better shape and my heart takes more work to reach the target rates? OR?......................... Or, WHAT? McMillan’s running calculator says I should be about a 14 minute mile for easy and a little more than that for the long runs all based on a 5k race in Sept at 36:57. Should I run a new 5k race against myself and use that time to re adjust things? I am still not real clear about what is a Steady State Run, Tempo Run and Tempo Intervals. So maybe some one can help me with that too. Sometimes I think I get this running thing and then other times I think, what the hell am I doing?

                        To paraphrase an old poster: Today is the first day of the rest of your training. It doesn’t matter where you started or how far you’ve come. Today is the day. Your training didn’t start 6 weeks ago. Your training started the last time you hit the road. John “the Penguin” Bingham Life is not tried, it is merely survived if you're standing outside the fire

                          Haha I am totally in the same boat as Bear_Poop. I've got my HRM set up with 145 to 170 as my *zone* based on my known max of 194 (this is the highest I've clocked on there when sprinting). Today during my three mile run this thread continued to go through my mind, slow down, slow down. I set the treadmill to 4.4, which is barely jogging but kept my HR at 170 or under for about 2.5 miles. By the end I was up to about 180bpm. It's hard not to be focused on bettering the pace/time! I want to get faster but I don't want to get injured so I guess the tradeoff is just accepting that my time/pace is going to suck for a while until I build up the endurance?
                          ---- Cynthia
                          Scout7


                            In terms of using an HRM, what you'll end up seeing is improved speed at a given heart rate at first. As you develop your ability to run longer and faster at a given heart rate, eventually you can move into the second phase of training (which is often overlooked.....). In the second phase, you start to develop your buffering ability. Basically you're developing your ability to maintain a higher heart rate over increased distances / times. Even during this, you're stilling running other runs at a lower heart rate. You just start incorporating what others call "tempo" training into it, or "pace runs", depending on who you ask / read / debate. You should see "significant" improvements about every 6 weeks or so. I have no definition of "significant", since it will vary based on ability and training. Make sense?
                              I just want to run, distance is my goal, not speed. I run to be physicaly fit, lower the blood sugar, raise the HDL, lower the LDL. I took some advice from Jakenight and stop using the HRM, and enjoy my runs more now. My competitive days are way behind me.
                              Age is not an illusion
                                I just want to run, distance is my goal, not speed. I run to be physicaly fit, lower the blood sugar, raise the HDL, lower the LDL. I took some advice from Jakenight and stop using the HRM, and enjoy my runs more now. My competitive days are way behind me.
                                OH I do enjoy the runs I enjoy running against myself and seeing the imporvement. I started running to control the very things you run for. So far 2 years and NO MEDS!!!

                                To paraphrase an old poster: Today is the first day of the rest of your training. It doesn’t matter where you started or how far you’ve come. Today is the day. Your training didn’t start 6 weeks ago. Your training started the last time you hit the road. John “the Penguin” Bingham Life is not tried, it is merely survived if you're standing outside the fire

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