The secret to running fast (Read 2992 times)

    Today I learned the secret.  A boy of about 8 was at a water stop in a 5k.  He says to another boy, "Don't worry about it, the fast ones don't drink water."  So that's the answer.

     

    Okay, I lied...  I said I'm outta here but, technically, our friend, Enkephalin, hasn't answered my question so...

     

    Actually here, it touches the core of a problem most people get into; are they fast BECAUSE they don't drink water, or do they not drink water BECAUSE they are fast?  Think about it.  There hides the answer to all this genetic question as well.  It is like a finger pointing away to the moon...  If you concentrated on the finger then you'll lose all that heavenly glory...

     

    To the Original Poster, since this thread had digressed so far off and I somehow feel a little bit responsible because I feel ilke I started all this "talent" stuff...  So for the question of form vs. conditioning; to run well, which one do you think is more important; your left leg or your right leg?


    HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

       

       

      So for the question of form vs. conditioning; to run well, which one do you think is more important; your left leg or your right leg?

       

      Depends which you use to cross the finish line.

      It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

        since this thread had digressed so far off track   

         

        Now thats a fair statement

        Champions are made when no one is watching

           

          Okay, I have one last question to Enkephalin and I'm outta here.

           

          So supposed your genetics really do control your limitation or whatever you call it, number of mitochondria or oxygen uptake level or whatever.  So if you find out, then what?

           

          If you find out that you have a potential to be at sub-2:10 marathon runner, then what would you do?

           

          Or if you find out that you absolutely suck, then what would you do? 

           

          How would that the fact (let's call it that for the time being) that you have predisposed and uncontrolled limitation alter your course of action? 

           

          Look, as Spaniel clearly stated, running 30mpw I am no where near my potential, whatever that might be.  My plan is to increase as much as my life commitments and desire (barring injury) allow me to, and see what that brings.  My gut feeling is something like a BQ will be harder for me than for some of my friends.  I know one guy who couldn't BQ until he went up to 300 miles per month.

           

          So if I absolutely suck, I race myself and put the blinders on, who cares what other's times are?

           

          Genetics, one last thing, I am dealing with hypothyroidism right now.  Low thyroid function has been well documented to reduce oxygen uptake or utilization in skeletal muscles.  So what if genetically someone came from a family with slightly lower basal metabolisms?  This hypothyroidism has reduced my easy pace by 1:30, very dramatic and frustrating.  Hopefully the medicine will get me back to my normal values.

           

          I used to swim in my friend's pool.  We would do contests, hold your breath and swim as many lengths underwater as you can before coming up for air.  She could always do twice as much as me, it was frustrating.  We played on all the same sports teams, so we were in theory in the same shape.  And had the same level of pain tolerance I assume (from childbirth).

           

          My left leg is genetically inferior to my right (for running), it is more knock kneed, I land on my heel as much as I try not to and the calf isn't as strong as the right.  And it pronates more of course.  I suppose if I were a dog in a litter I wouldn't be picked to carry on the lineage.

           

          And I wasn't avoiding your question.....I was sleeping!

          "During a marathon, I run about two-thirds of the time. That's plenty." - Margaret Davis, 85 Ed Whitlock regarding his 2:54:48 marathon at age 73, "That was a good day. It was never a struggle."


          Feeling the growl again

            I have extremely low basal metabolism, while most of my family is hypothyroid they cannot diagnose a reason for mine.  My body temp as I sit here is about 94-95, it dropped from normal in my mid-20s.  If I stop running, it drops even lower and I feel like CRAP.  Running is the only thing that keeps me from feeling twice my age.


            I believe Bob Kennedy battled hypothroid too, as well as a couple other very good runners I know.  It is normally easily medicated and, once controlled, something you can train through.


            In college I ran with a guy who set the school record of 14:53 for 5K and had one leg a full inch shorter than the other.  We joked that it was an advantage because it was his left leg that was short so it would help him run the curves on the track faster.  However he was limited to about 50 mpw because the imbalances this introduced would tear him up if he ran more volume than that.  It's a good think his genetic "set point" was relatively high and allowed him to run faster off lower volume.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

              I didn't necessary think you were avoiding me-that was just MY excuse to get back on this thread... ;o)

               

              Genetics, one last thing, I am dealing with hypothyroidism right now.  Low thyroid function has been well documented to reduce oxygen uptake or utilization in skeletal muscles.  So what if genetically someone came from a family with slightly lower basal metabolisms?  This hypothyroidism has reduced my easy pace by 1:30, very dramatic and frustrating.  Hopefully the medicine will get me back to my normal values.

              ....

               

              My left leg is genetically inferior to my right (for running), it is more knock kneed, I land on my heel as much as I try not to and the calf isn't as strong as the right.  And it pronates more of course.  I suppose if I were a dog in a litter I wouldn't be picked to carry on the lineage. 

               

              As Spaniel had stated, I do know a very similar story.  I pretty much decided, as early as when I was about 15, that I would not make, nor tolerate, any excuse related to "talent".  That was about the time I had come across Arthur Lydiard (not in person yet) and one of his runners by the name of Murray Halberg.  He was a good runner in his teens.  But he had a major accident when he was 17 playing rugby.  He broke his shoulder badly and broke all nerves and blood vessels.  Blood started to leak into his heart chamber and doctors had to open up his chest to remove all the clotting blood.  His left arm had become useless because all the nerve endings were cut.  Doctors asked his parents whether to amputate his left arm because he would not be able to use it again.  Besides the fact that the doctors told them that he'd be lucky to live till next week, his parents just told them to leave it on (otherwise he would look funny in a coffin!).  He lived.  He was born left-handed so he had to learn everything from scratch.  One of my mentors in NZ, Ray Puckett, used to help him cut food for him on a trip.  Well, he not only lived (still alive and kicking), but he had become an Olympic gold medalist in 5000m in 1960 Rome Games, set numerous world records, was the first NZer to break 4-minute for the mile (basically with one arm).

               

              I think you're better off especially you seem to know your "issues".  I have distinctly stronger left leg than right.  It actually had become worse lately because I've done too much eccentric heel raiser for my left Achilles; I actually do feel my left leg stronger...  But at any rate, I used to do a triple jump and my left leg is my kicking leg.  Knowing that, if I come to stairs, I always take the first step with my right foot.  If it's even number, good.  But if it's odd number, my right leg would take one extra step.  I'm always aware of that and had always been trying to do something about it.

               

              Anybody run Bloomsday?  They have a half mile long uphill called Doomsday hill.  Years ago, at the reception, I sat next to this guy who was on a wheelchair.  He broke his neck when he was a kid.  I had to help him poke a piece of cantelope on his fork because he didn't have strength to do so!  Yet, he push his wheel up the Doomsday hill.  If you see enough of these people, a small talk about "I can't do this" or "I can't do that" all of a sudden becomes very small.

               

              I used to swim in my friend's pool.  We would do contests, hold your breath and swim as many lengths underwater as you can before coming up for air.  She could always do twice as much as me, it was frustrating. 

               

              By the way, WMRunner is probably more optimistic than I am but, sorry, I still only see resentment from your comments.  I still feel you're too busy whining than getting determined to overcome whatever the bad luck you feel you were born with.

                  
                It is like a finger pointing away to the moon...  If you concentrated on the finger then you'll lose all that heavenly glory...

                 

                It's about time Enter the Dragon made its way into this conversation!!

                "Because in the end, you won't remember the time you spent working in the office or mowing your lawn.  Climb that goddamn mountain."

                Jack Kerouac

                  That's interesting Spaniel, and yet you are a terrific runner!

                  I feel about 60 years old since this hypothyroidism hit (I'm 46)

                  Before I developed it, and ran 40 miles a week, I felt about 25, just incredible with tons of energy, but thankfully I didn't act 25.

                  And with no running, I just felt my age.

                  "During a marathon, I run about two-thirds of the time. That's plenty." - Margaret Davis, 85 Ed Whitlock regarding his 2:54:48 marathon at age 73, "That was a good day. It was never a struggle."

                    I wouldn't call it resentment, but I will concede frustration and whining.  I shall no longer whine, I appreciate your points Nobby.

                    "During a marathon, I run about two-thirds of the time. That's plenty." - Margaret Davis, 85 Ed Whitlock regarding his 2:54:48 marathon at age 73, "That was a good day. It was never a struggle."

                      I wouldn't call it resentment, but I will concede frustration and whining.  I shall no longer whine, I appreciate your points Nobby.

                       

                      I don't mean to put you down or anything, seriously.  What I really tried to say is what potential we all have cannot be determined until we really apply ourselves.  Most of us don't--again, because all sorts of excuses come in our ways.

                       

                      We all have something to thank these two gentlemen; Arthur Lydiard and Bill Bowerman.  These were the ones who spread "jogging" to mass.  It was one of the oldest guys Lydiard "coached", Andy Steddman, 74 years old, who shocked Bowerman, at the time 50 years old and thought he was strong and fit; to reconsider his own state of fitness and brought this concept of "jogging" from NZ to Eugene, OR.  I just don't believe ALL of these people had superior genetic advantages.  These 20 people, who ALL had had at least one heart attack previously, the youngest being 50 and the oldest Steddman.  And they were talking about 4-hour marathon and 8-minute mile.  There's got to be something they were doing right.

                       

                      There are just far too many examples, like Spaniel had shown as well, to cling onto any "handicaps".  Reiko Tosa was a basketball player in high school and ran a bit in college but nothing to be too proud of.  No corporate team wanted her.  She was never recruited so she had to go to the team Mitsui Sumitomo.  Mitsui Sumitomo was a good team but nothing like what it is now.  But it was Tosa who changed the attitude of the team.  They are basically training twice a day.  Their morning "workout" consisted of an easy half an hour jog.  Reiko was pushing her own envelope and soon started to run 1:30~2:00 every morning before their regular afternoon workout.  She finished well in her "official" first marathon and then selected to run Athens Olympics.  Soon a new-comer to the team, Yoko Shibui was influenced heavily by Reiko's attitude, soon she started running upward of 2-hours every morning.  Soon the entier team started to run 1:30~2:00 every mornig.  Next thing you know, the team had won the national road relay championships 7 years out of the last 9 years.  Reiko came to Boston in 2006 and finished third, went on and won the bronze medal in Osaka World Championships marathon in 2007.  Her dramatic come-from-behind performance won the heart of millions in Japan, the mayor of Osaka was so touched that he placed a statue of her foot/hand prints at the very spot where she came back from 5th place to third (1 mile from the finish).  I"ve known quite a few top-flight athletes probably more than anybody else on this forum and I know what separates these elite athletes from us ordinary people is, whatever you want to call it, this dogged determination.  Us slower runners in the back of the pack have way too many excuses.

                       

                      Of course, not every wants to be like that--I remember someone said something about he was too busy playing tennis to be a good runner.  Well, good for him!  But do not bring this genetic advantage/disadvantage buillshit if you really haven't tried THAT much.  Unless you do that, we are not on the equal playground to begin with.


                      Man in Tights

                        Depends on what distance you want to run. A 100 metres, 3K, 5K, 10K, HM or a marathon. All these disciplines have pace benchmarks. Getting close to the benchmarks requires training and natural talent.

                        So there are is no magic bullet.






                        I look my best blurry!

                          There are other factors in addition to genetics and training.  Have you read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?  My 16 yo read it and loved it.  I requested it as my book club choice a few months ago.  It made for a lively discussion.  Very interesting stuff.  We all have advantages and disadvantages, reasons and excuses for our successes and failures in running and all aspects of our lives, such as time, support group, location, access to health care, gym, financial means, coaching ( ;o)  ), where we are born and when, birth order, who our parents are. We can control some factors and obviously we cannot control others.  Luck or chance plays a part, too.  It goes on and on.   Make the most of your advantages and don't dwell on the disadvantages.  That works pretty well for me!
                            Yes I believe Outliers just surpassed Crossing the Chasm from the 1990s as the book most often referenced by corporate leadership teams when addressing the field.  The principal claim from the book is that 10,000 hours of practice is what's required to become expert at something.

                            Runners run.

                              Yes I believe Outliers just surpassed Crossing the Chasm from the 1990s as the book most often referenced by corporate leadership teams when addressing the field.  The principal claim from the book is that 10,000 hours of practice is what's required to become expert at something.

                               

                              or to know if you have what it takes to be the best. This concept was discussed after the Canadians won the gold in hockey. It was mentioned how their players get thousands of hours of ice time before they really know how good they can be.   

                                I feel about 60 years old since this hypothyroidism hit (I'm 46)

                                Before I developed it, and ran 40 miles a week, I felt about 25, just incredible with tons of energy, but thankfully I didn't act 25.

                                 

                                You ought to talk to you Dr.    I have had the same problem since I was 35 and been on medication since then and for life.   If you feel this bad fom thyroid issues, you have a problem that doesnt have much to do with genetics...

                                 

                                I don't think this should cause you any problems what so ever if its properly medicated..........surely not in your running....

                                Champions are made when no one is watching