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Kid Broke School Record -- Or Did He? (Read 260 times)

    Question for some of you guys who know the track rules really well, and I'm too lazy to go surfing through the USATF info, etc.

     

    So, we had a really really good kid the other day run a 4:20.1 anchor leg of a 4x1600m relay.  This was an incredible accomplishment for him - hero of the day - won the race - PR by over 8 seconds.  And as it turns out it was over 3 seconds faster than the school 1600m record.  But does a relay leg count since there was a "running start"?  I suspect maybe not, but it sure seems like since he smashed the previous record that it should count.....  even if they tacked on an extra "running start" second, eh?  (Okay, I know we can't just tack on arbitrary amounts of time, but still....)

    - Joe

    all running goals are under review by the executive committee.

      Can't speak for track, but back in the day when I was swimming on a team only the first leg would count as any sort of official record.

      I have a feeling it's probably the same for the track, for the exact reason you suspect (running start)


      Just a dude.

        School records are usually kept by the schools, so it might be up to the track coach or athletic director... I'd expect it wont count. Get the kid in a quick open 1600 and let him break it there with no controversy... he's run it once, that should give him the confidence to do it again... :-) -Kelly

        Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 


        Feeling the growl again

          Schools are not held to USATF rules, but I can't imagine and scenario where a relay leg other than the first would count as a record.  Not only do they have a flying start, but depending on where they took the baton they may not have even run the full distance.  As Kelly said, get him in an open race to do it right.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

            Granted my information is nearly 40 years old now, but when I was running high school track in the early to mid 1970s it was only the first leg which qualified for a school record.

              Really Good Kid    1600m  4:20.1*

              www.hplg.net  The Human Powered League - Solo Cup Series - Trail Building

                My son's coach makes this simple. He differentiates times from relays from staod-alone races.  It might count as a school record from a 1600m relay leg, but not a stand-alone 1600m. There's not just the running vs. standing start issue, there's also the issue of where the lap starts/stops (hand-off, start of zone, end of zone, etc).

                  Schools are not held to USATF rules, but I can't imagine and scenario where a relay leg other than the first would count as a record.  Not only do they have a flying start, but depending on where they took the baton they may not have even run the full distance.  As Kelly said, get him in an open race to do it right.

                   

                  Yes, I figured the school would not be bound by USATF rules, but assumed they would probably follow some similar sanctioning.  spaniel, he definitely ran the full distance -- took the baton before the line -- and the splits were recorded by an FAT system at the line, so he definitely covered the full distance in the time we are talking about, but I suspect everyone is right.  :-(

                   

                  Now I just need to convince him that he can do it again in an open race.  There is a lot of psychology for a lot of these kids when it comes to racing.  (Heck, I guess that's true for us old geezers, too....)

                   

                  BTW, ha!, I wasn't implying he was "really good" because he is fast.  He's a good friend of my son, and I know him fairly well personally, and I just meant that as a person, he is a really good kid, and I would love for his name to be up there on the board in the gym.

                  - Joe

                  all running goals are under review by the executive committee.

                    My son's coach makes this simple. He differentiates times from relays from staod-alone races.  It might count as a school record from a 1600m relay leg, but not a stand-alone 1600m. There's not just the running vs. standing start issue, there's also the issue of where the lap starts/stops (hand-off, start of zone, end of zone, etc).

                     

                    You take the splits *at the line* always so that rules out the zones and handoffs and all that, although, yes, in some cases that means one kid ran 1603 meters with the baton whereas the other one ran 1597 with the baton, and one kid gets "credit" for 3 meters run by the other kid but then at least you are definitely comparing apples to apples distance/time wise.

                    - Joe

                    all running goals are under review by the executive committee.


                    Feeling the growl again

                       

                        spaniel, he definitely ran the full distance -- took the baton before the line -- and the splits were recorded by an FAT system at the line, so he definitely covered the full distance in the time we are talking about, but I suspect everyone is right.  :-(

                       

                       

                      So yes, he covered the full distance, but he still had a flying start.

                       

                      Many schools would still count hand timing for record purposes...not everybody has FAT at every meet and it's just school records.  But I've never heard of anyone anywhere counting a relay leg outside of the first one.  Same reason on the roads you can't count anything for record purposes except starting from the official start line to an intermediate point.

                       

                      MTA:  Given there is a lot of psych involved...I've seen kids do a lot in relays they never would have done in a solo race...but he just broke a huge mental barrier so he should be able to get at least close to that.  How far was he under the old record?  How close does he need to get?

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       

                        He was more than 3 seconds under the school record.  More importantly, he was 4 seconds under another kid on our team who is the "#1 runner".  I'm not sure in an open race where both of them are running that he will *believe* that he can beat #1.  I believe he certainly can -- but you know that can be an enormous mental barrier for anybody.  The tricky old mind says, "Wow, this really hurts and that's because I'm right behind this guy I've always run behind my whole high school career, so probably I don't belong here so I'm going to let him go....."

                        - Joe

                        all running goals are under review by the executive committee.


                        Feeling the growl again

                          He was more than 3 seconds under the school record.  More importantly, he was 4 seconds under another kid on our team who is the "#1 runner".  I'm not sure in an open race where both of them are running that he will *believe* that he can beat #1.  I believe he certainly can -- but you know that can be an enormous mental barrier for anybody.  The tricky old mind says, "Wow, this really hurts and that's because I'm right behind this guy I've always run behind my whole high school career, so probably I don't belong here so I'm going to let him go....."

                           

                          Sounds like a coachable opportunity.  Smile

                           

                          When I was in HS there was our "best runner" who I'd been far behind since 7th grade.  Junior year I'd improved greatly and I spent most every race duking it out with him before he'd pull away over the last mile (5K XC).  Then I beat him at State.  Filed it as a fluke but senior year I beat him again and it really led to a difference in my times, I started running against myself rather than gauging off him.  Unfortunately for the team the psychological effect was not all positive as he gave up trying to keep up with me and did not do as well as before.

                           

                          Show him the times, build the fire.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           

                             Show him the times, build the fire.

                             

                            Good stuff, that.  Well said.  I'm on the mission!

                            - Joe

                            all running goals are under review by the executive committee.

                              He was more than 3 seconds under the school record.  More importantly, he was 4 seconds under another kid on our team who is the "#1 runner".  I'm not sure in an open race where both of them are running that he will *believe* that he can beat #1.  I believe he certainly can -- but you know that can be an enormous mental barrier for anybody.  The tricky old mind says, "Wow, this really hurts and that's because I'm right behind this guy I've always run behind my whole high school career, so probably I don't belong here so I'm going to let him go....."

                               

                              While I have no doubt  that type of mental thing happens, the reverse can also be true.  Back in high school I had always trailed my fellow 2-miler, sometimes by only five or six seconds, other times by over thirty seconds, and while we were both improving, I was dealing with "other things" in my life which kind of held me back, things such as a bad family life (step-father was an abusive drunk), cycling over 4,000 miles in the five weeks prior to my senior cross country season (I was all used up to say the least), and then breaking a leg during the winter of my senior year.

                               

                              Through it all it never occurred to me I couldn't beat Doug, I just hadn't, yet.  When my senior track season started I was less than a month out of the cast and my running was pretty ungainly due to the stiffness in my left ankle; my first races that year resulted in times slower than when I was a freshman.  Just beyond mid-season Doug and I effectively tied in a race where the other school's top runner was an easy half of a lap down; after that race he said to me, "Don't get used to that, I'll not let you get that close to me again."

                               

                              The next race was a multi-school event with some bad blood between our school and one other; the guys from said other school took it upon themselves to box Doug and me in (not sure whether they'd been coached to do that or not).  By the mile mark I was getting tired of running in such close quarters and at such a "slow" pace, I heard the timer calling 4:51 as I crossed the line and realized I was still breathing through my nose; that's when I made the decision to break the box.  I slowed down to what seemed almost a walk, spilled out of the back of the box, and blew past the group on the outside like they were standing still; Doug told me later that was when the box fell apart and he managed to pass all of them as well.  I finished my second mile with a 4:37 split with Doug some 20 seconds behind me; he never beat me for the rest of the season.

                                I wonder how many of us have similar stories about beating that one kid?

                                 

                                For or me it was Robert (on the swim team), he was two years older than me, and had been training and racing for far longer. He was the best swimmer on our team by far. He was my idol on the team, I copied what he did in practice, copied what he did in pre-race, everything.  I figured if it worked for him, it would work for me.

                                I beat him the second meet of my sophomore (and his senior) year. I had grown a bit over the summer and had finally built some muscle.

                                I still remember him looking at me after the race with his mouth gaping open. "You beat me?!?" he said it over and over, almost like he couldn't believe it and was trying to convince himself. I was ecstatic. That win meant more than nearly any other race I ever won. I never lost to him again that year, or even after that on the club teams.

                                That race was the start of a really good stretch for me.

                                If I could beat Robert, I could beat anyone.

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