Is sub 3 possible for me in 9 weeks? 16 weeks actually (Read 620 times)

    I'm a slower runner than some of the others giving advice so I figured I would chime in.  I've done 14 marathons total with the last 8 of them being sub 3.  My mileage has averaged between 45 - 55 per week for all the sub 3 results.

     

    I have never done tempo or progressions in the long run.  That would just be too hard for me.  I would do a marathon pace tempo (2 mile warm up then 10 miles at 6:30 - 6:20 pace maybe 3 times max leading up to the marathon) on Saturday and then long run Sunday.  I usually do 5k of track intervals once a week at 5k pace and some kind of hills once a week.  That's it, I don't follow any specific plans.  I would always like to do more mileage in general but I get tired.


    Feeling the growl again

       

      I think we're in agreement that David is not trained to run sub 3, isn't training correctly to run sub 3, and isn't showing the proper indicators to run sub 3.

       

      The point I was making was that telling him how it's done in a 90-110 mpw training cycle isn't useful at all to him. With the proper base and workouts he's a good candidate for sub 3 with a smart training cycle of 60 mpw.

       

       

      I would agree with the bolded above.  I would disagree that this is the lens through which any of my advice was given, if you look back at my replies here.  With a quick look back I think I can summarize my input as:

      1)  He's got insufficient base to attempt some of what he has been doing

      2)  His long runs are too long too frequently and attempted too fast for the base he has

      3)  He looks to be trying to hero some of the shorter/interval work and predict sub-3 off that when he can't hit the longer workouts as prescribed, and those are the better predictors

       

      I've given some examples using my experience on a much larger base, but there was always a reason for the example applicable to the lower-mileage runner.

       

      And I would echo that a lower-mileage runner should not attempt to run a third of an 18-20 mile run at MP every week.  I wouldn't have them run that far every week, and I wouldn't have them do every long run as a harder workout (every other week works well).  But if you DO try to hit MP for mile 17 of a long run and can't do it, then it isn't your MP.  Smile  Someone fast enough to be going for sub-3 should be capable of doing some progression/tempo work at the end of a long run, even if last 4 miles of 16 at MP.

       

      David, I hope all this has been useful to you.  I don't think you will get your sub-3 with this cycle but with a bit of time I think it is well within your capabilities.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

      drifter


          But if you DO try to hit MP for mile 17 of a long run and can't do it, then it isn't your MP.  Smile  Someone fast enough to be going for sub-3 should be capable of doing some progression/tempo work at the end of a long run, even if last 4 miles of 16 at MP.

         

         

        I like this. I never even attempted it in my Boston cycle, but I knew I could, if I wanted to, probably just 1-3 miles though.  My fastest miles were probably low 8 for the long runs and I did break 3 hours for half minute in Boston, my second sub 3.


        Interval Junkie --Nobby

          When I train for a marathon, I run two long runs per week. On Tuesday 18-20 on tired legs after a hard Monday and on Saturday 20-25 rested.

           

          Holy crackers.Two ~20milers a week?  Not just for once for a stunt, but the typical week?  Do you also work in a speed-workout during those weeks?  I'm in awe.  My body would never recover.

          2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

          Current Status 11/10: Back to building up miles.  Junk feels mostly okay.  Kinda.


          Feeling the growl again

            Talent comes in many forms.  Really, really good athletes will have many or all of these pieces.  The ability to recover rapidly is one of them.  The biggest difference I am finding between my 36yo self and 26yo self as I try to really train seriously for the first time in several years is in recovery.

             

            I couldn't have trained like Goo either!  One of many reasons he was much, much better.

             

             

              My body would never recover.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

            Goorun


              Recovery time is the biggest difference between my younger years and now.

              As others, I was not trying to tell David to do two LRs . It was just an example in relation to ability to run MP.

              I would not recommend in his case anything longer than 15-16 miles.

              To clarified  LR progression, you start much slower that the steady pace LR. You won 't get to that pace till the half way into your run. The overall average pace of the progression run is the same as the pace of your steady LR. That way your first half should be really easy, almost recovery run pace.

              Slow and steady never wins anything.

                I love this place. (That reminds me that I should donate again).

                 

                I know many of you are very experienced and much faster and I love your concrete examples and experiences to gauge my training. The great thing for me in RA is that I don't need to follow any of your plans, however, your comments have influenced my decisions and my trainings one way or the other. That is the reason that I don't go for a specific coach. He/She may get annoyed if I don't follow his/her plan.

                 

                I know everyone warns me that I should not really run a sub-3 this time. If I am still too stubborn to change and still go for a sub-3, what is a strategy to test out my sub-3 ability for this coming taping down long run (16-17 miles). By the way, there are 16 days to go for the race.

                5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                Goorun


                  I'm a slower runner than some of the others giving advice so I figured I would chime in.  I've done 14 marathons total with the last 8 of them being sub 3.  My mileage has averaged between 45 - 55 per week for all the sub 3 results.

                   

                  I have never done tempo or progressions in the long run.  That would just be too hard for me.  I would do a marathon pace tempo (2 mile warm up then 10 miles at 6:30 - 6:20 pace maybe 3 times max leading up to the marathon) on Saturday and then long run Sunday.  I usually do 5k of track intervals once a week at 5k pace and some kind of hills once a week.  That's it, I don't follow any specific plans.  I would always like to do more mileage in general but I get tired.

                   

                  First, when I say slower runner, I'm referring to people who run 4-5 hour marathons, not to somebody who has multiple sub 3 results.

                  I'm a big proponent of simplified training plan. Healthy young male should be able to get sub 3 marathon on 50-60 miles per week, one long run of 15-16 miles, one fartlek type of run per week and maybe some easy hill workouts and rest of it easy running.

                  Do this for 2-3 years and most should be there.

                  Training for a marathon doesn't have to be complicated.

                  Slow and steady never wins anything.

                  Goorun


                    I love this place. (That reminds me that I should donate again).

                     

                    I know many of you are very experienced and much faster and I love your concrete examples and experiences to gauge my training. The great thing for me in RA is that I don't need to follow any of your plans, however, your comments have influenced my decisions and my trainings one way or the other. That is the reason that I don't go for a specific coach. He/She may get annoyed if I don't follow his/her plan.

                     

                    I know everyone warns me that I should not really run a sub-3 this time. If I am still too stubborn to change and still go for a sub-3, what is a strategy to test out my sub-3 ability for this coming taping down long run (16-17 miles). By the way, there are 16 days to go for the race.

                     

                    We could not stop you from trying.

                    I told the story of my first marathon a few time so just a short version.

                    I ran my first marathon when I was 19. I was a cocky track runner (I ran 14:47 5000 when I was 17 and I was faster than that at 19). I thought that marathon runners are stupidly slow. My longest race at that time was 10k.

                    My half split was just over 1:12, I finished seconds under 3 hours. I said I'll never run a marathon again and took a few years before I did.

                    Slow and steady never wins anything.

                       

                      We could not stop you from trying.

                      I told the story of my first marathon a few time so just a short version.

                      I ran my first marathon when I was 19. I was a cocky track runner (I ran 14:47 5000 when I was 17 and I was faster than that at 19). I thought that marathon runners are stupidly slow. My longest race at that time was 10k.

                      My half split was just over 1:12, I finished seconds under 3 hours. I said I'll never run a marathon again and took a few years before I did.

                       

                      Funny, my son in HS and some of this HS friends look at the marathon paces and sort of scoff at it. I've heard some of their parents (non runners) say things like "Jimmy can run 12 miles at a 6:45 pace. Surely he can keep it up for another 14.  I kindly respond that I thought the same thing when I was their age, and then I tried the marathon. I said you really can't explain how you feel when you reach that point and your body is out of fuel... you're slowing down and there's nothing you can do about it. 


                      Interval Junkie --Nobby

                        I know many of you are very experienced and much faster and I love your concrete examples and experiences to gauge my training. The great thing for me in RA is that I don't need to follow any of your plans, however, your comments have influenced my decisions and my trainings one way or the other. That is the reason that I don't go for a specific coach. He/She may get annoyed if I don't follow his/her plan.

                         

                        I know everyone warns me that I should not really run a sub-3 this time. If I am still too stubborn to change and still go for a sub-3, what is a strategy to test out my sub-3 ability for this coming taping down long run (16-17 miles). By the way, there are 16 days to go for the race.

                         

                        I completely agree.  These guys helped me understand a lot of the mistakes I was making.  They are quite a valuable resource.  Though, I'd disagree that people don't get annoyed if you don't follow/respect their wisdom. Wink

                         

                        You can't really improve your fitness on this weekend's longrun.  The most you can expect to do is assess if you're even close.  But even if you nail this workout in a way a sub3 would, I'm not sure it's statistically relevant.  I usually taper for 3 weeks, with the last run before that a 22mile Time on Feet run.  2weeks out I'd be doing a 14miler with 11 at MP, the first 3 at whatever pace I plan for the race.  Here is what it looked like. Probably should feel like an honest effort with plenty in the tank on the last mile (I finished at 6:15 pace, which I don't recommend, but I needed it to know I could do it).

                        2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

                        Current Status 11/10: Back to building up miles.  Junk feels mostly okay.  Kinda.

                          I love this place. (That reminds me that I should donate again).

                           

                          I know many of you are very experienced and much faster and I love your concrete examples and experiences to gauge my training. The great thing for me in RA is that I don't need to follow any of your plans, however, your comments have influenced my decisions and my trainings one way or the other. That is the reason that I don't go for a specific coach. He/She may get annoyed if I don't follow his/her plan.

                           

                          I know everyone warns me that I should not really run a sub-3 this time. If I am still too stubborn to change and still go for a sub-3, what is a strategy to test out my sub-3 ability for this coming taping down long run (16-17 miles). By the way, there are 16 days to go for the race.

                           

                          I'm not a big fan of 'predictor workouts' (others may be able to suggest a workout to predict sub-3) but I love actual race results as predictors.  If you want to know if you can run a sub-3 then find a 10K race this weekend and run 39:20 or better.  Even that may not be good enough as I think you may be lacking in endurance.  Wishing you the best in your race.


                          The Pocatello Kid.

                            Def. agree no improving your fitness, but you certainly can improve your confidence (which to be honest doesn't sound like your lacking Wink ) This is a good workout. I failed at sub 3 multiple times before I crossed to the dark side, but at all my attempts, I think doing 14 with 11 at 6:50 pace would have been an honest doable workout . Totally not necessary, but confidence is a big part of the marathon.

                             

                            I completely agree.  These guys helped me understand a lot of the mistakes I was making.  They are quite a valuable resource.  Though, I'd disagree that people don't get annoyed if you don't follow/respect their wisdom. Wink

                             

                            You can't really improve your fitness on this weekend's longrun.  The most you can expect to do is assess if you're even close.  But even if you nail this workout in a way a sub3 would, I'm not sure it's statistically relevant.  I usually taper for 3 weeks, with the last run before that a 22mile Time on Feet run.  2weeks out I'd be doing a 14miler with 11 at MP, the first 3 at whatever pace I plan for the race.  Here is what it looked like. Probably should feel like an honest effort with plenty in the tank on the last mile (I finished at 6:15 pace, which I don't recommend, but I needed it to know I could do it).

                               

                              I'm not a big fan of 'predictor workouts' (others may be able to suggest a workout to predict sub-3) but I love actual race results as predictors.  If you want to know if you can run a sub-3 then find a 10K race this weekend and run 39:20 or better.  Even that may not be good enough as I think you may be lacking in endurance.  Wishing you the best in your race.

                               

                              I would have thought sub 39 run steady without a fade. McMillian says sub 38:30. If that's not possible the endurance probably isn't there.


                              Feeling the growl again

                                I would strongly caution NOT to run a hard 16-17 miler 16 days before your marathon trying to predict if you can make sub-3.  You are too late to add fitness, and close enough that this sort of long, hard effort may impact you negatively on race day.

                                 

                                Now is the time to focus less on volume and more on quality.  Shorter hard efforts will maintain your fitness; cutting down on the bulk will keep you fresher and start your recovery into the taper.

                                 

                                If you really want a predictor, I'd race a 10K Saturday -- or time trial one -- then do your last long run a day or two later at very easy recovery pace.

                                 

                                I'm all for long, hard efforts to train for the marathon but I cringe sometimes when I see people proposing MP runs >10 miles, especially to lower-mileage runners.  There is a reason we taper; MP on race day and MP in the midst of training are very, very different things for most of us.  I always found that whatever pace I could do for a very solid 10-mile tempo run in the midst of full training load was very close to what I could race a marathon at.

                                 

                                One of the two reasons my marathon PR sucks is because I HAD to have one last mental boost a month out from my goal marathon and did 14 miles at goal MP.  It did not have a positive impact on my training (largely as the other reason my PR sucks is that this workout was preceded 8 days earlier by the best 10K of my life and I was already teetering on the edge of over-training).  In looking back on the whole affair, I don't think most people can assimilate such a long effort at that intensity under full training load without digging themselves into a real hole.

                                 

                                Now, if you know how to run it at marathon EFFORT, and not goal pace, it's quite different.

                                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand