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What to do with all the information? (Read 1161 times)

    I have been running on and off for the last 33 years. ( I am 47 ) Ran competitively in high school, raced bicycles for awhile after that, then just tried to stay in shape. My main reasons for running lately have been as conditioning for badminton and soccer. My 13 year old is now old enough to start using running as conditioning for his soccer and hockey and he also runs cross country at school so now is a good time to get him started. 

    I have been running two or three times a week for 1/2 an hour at a reasonably quick pace. I was quite happy with that, I don't even know how fast I was running. Now that my son is running I want to get him started well and training properly so I got out my heart rate monitor and decided I would start wearing that but I had not clue as to what a reasonable heart rate would be. I googled and found the Maffetone formula of 180-age and so I decided to try that for both him and me. I am now running a lot slower ( it feels a lot slower anyway ) . I run about 12km in an hour and my average heart rate is about 133. I run Monday and Wednesday, soccer on Friday, cycle on Sundays and try to squeeze in a weight workout and then 25 minute runs with my son on Tuesday, Wednesdays.

    But now that I am sort of training with sort of plan ( maybe, vaguely in the loosest sense of the word plan ) I want to do better both for myself and for my son. I am a little surprised with all the information available now. Something like the Garmin Forerunner 305 seems like a really nice device which gives lots of information. My question is, what do you do with all the information? How do you use it to optimize time spent training so that you neither over or under train?

    regards

    Kevin

    xor


      I just run easy.

       

      Scout7


      CPT Curmudgeon

        Quite simply, I don't.  I have tried to keep things as simple as possible, so I track two metrics: volume and intensity (effort).  I track volume by either distance or time, and I track intensity by Rate of Perceived Exertion (or RPE).  I measure progress based on primarily on race times.  I know I am taking on too much when I am getting tired and cranky and sore all the time.  I know I am doing it right if I am feeling pretty good throughout the day.

         

        That's all I really do.

          I know I am taking on too much when I am getting tired and cranky and sore all the time.

          +1.  Although I'm usually tired and cranky all the time, so I really just have to watch out for "sore".

           

          Unlike Scout, though (I think), I use a Forerunner 305 on every run/ride.  Mostly, it's just to log the data, because I really like wallowing in the data from time to time.  About the only thing I really use it for is to see my too-high heart rate and remind myself that I'm running faster than "easy" pace.  Yeah, you can already feel it, but sometimes it just gets away from you ...

           

          FWIW, I use the Karvonen heart-rate reserve math to get my training zones.  I really only use the easy and tempo zones, and mostly to help me correlate the feeling with the zone.

          “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

            Running easy is what I have been doing lately.

             

            For me, the Maffetone number works out to 133 and the Karvonen 70% works out to 136. The alarm on my heart rate monitor is set to 136 and the average has been around 133. For the last 20 minutes of an hour I feel like I am just creeping along to keep it under 136.

             

            It seems that something like the Garmin Forerunner 305 gives a lot of information but a lot of people just look at the data, ignore it and train more if they feel fresh and a bit less if they feel tired. Makes a lot of sense.

             

            Kevin


            A Dance with Monkeys

              I know I am taking on too much when I am getting tired and cranky and sore all the time

               

              Children in the home can confound this outcome.


              Feeling the growl again

                Just because you can generate data and record it does not mean it will really help you a whole lot.

                 

                Me personally, I still use an old Garmin 201.  I don't even use much of its functionality; I simply use it as an odometer to know how far I've gone and what the average pace was.  I also use it to do intervals and stuff on the road, that I used to need to find a track for.  I use a HRM about twice per year for one specific workout and that is all.  I've had good success with this limited amount of data.

                 

                The only real data I have found very valuable is a good log.  I have some standard workouts I have done time and time again; now, by comparing a completed workout to old ones in my log, I can really get an accurate gauge of my current fitness and what I should be targeting in other workouts.

                 

                I'm not saying the other stuff is completely useless, but one thing I like about running is the simplicity.  Unless you are a top athlete going for that last 2% improvement, the value is limited.  Regarding Maffetone, one thing that does help some people with is not running too hard all the time when they have not yet learned how to listen to their bodies and keep easy pace easy.

                 

                Now for you, running 1/2hr 3X a week, if you feel great with whatever pace you are doing -- even if it is quicker than Maffetone wants you to do -- you are probably fine.  But if you decide to increase your volume and/or frequency and pursue improvements, it would be wise to do what Maffetone says and slow down while you are building up and making sure you continue to recover adequately.  As for your son, without guidance, kids have a tendancy to take a "no pain no gain" approach and run too hard most of the time unless someone teaches them not to.

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 


                Feeling the growl again

                  Children in the home can confound this outcome.

                   

                  +1

                  "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                   

                    There was a time, and not all that long ago, that had I found my garmin battery dead I would actually consider bagging my run...WTF?

                     

                    I logged every run distance to the nearest 1/100th, slowest pace, fastest pace, average pace and the same went for the heart rate. I logged the temp, the time...you get the picture.

                     

                    Bottom line, none of that really changed the way I trained. It just consumed time strapping up and logging in.

                     

                    My Garmin died and I haven't replaced it. I've learned that I can run without it and the most important information is how I feel. My volume increased and my PR times decreased.

                     

                    I don't know anything about heart rate training but watching a friend I really have to wonder if it really isn't more of a hindrance.

                    www.hplg.net  The Human Powered League - Solo Cup Series - Trail Building

                      Running easy is what I have been doing lately.

                       

                      For me, the Maffetone number works out to 133 and the Karvonen 70% works out to 136. The alarm on my heart rate monitor is set to 136 and the average has been around 133. For the last 20 minutes of an hour I feel like I am just creeping along to keep it under 136.

                       

                      It seems that something like the Garmin Forerunner 305 gives a lot of information but a lot of people just look at the data, ignore it and train more if they feel fresh and a bit less if they feel tired. Makes a lot of sense.

                       

                      Kevin

                       

                      Kevin, I'm not sure whether one way is better than another.  I'm not smart enough to know.  However, for me, it's a game of data collection and information.
                      I train by HR, and work my HR at a comfortable effort (143 - 150).  I try to keep 90+% of my miles in that range.

                      My goal is to have my HR maintain the same rate while under consistent conditions (ie. treadmill in controlled environment at constant speed).  If I can, I consider my self ready for a longer distance (and / or an increase in speed).  Ideally, I'd be able to run 13+ miles at a consistent HR at the same speed if in a controlled environment.

                       

                      Regarding the data that I collect, I factor in the "feel" I have after a training outing and compare it to the data that I see (speed, HR, etc.).

                      On Monday, I did a 53 mile bike ride in the heat (starting at 7:45am).  By the time that I got off my bike at 11:30am, it was hot (100+ degrees), and I ran out of fluids miles earlier.  My HR increased way too high, and I was overheated.  The last 10 miles were brutal, and my AVGHR during those miles were way higher than I wanted them to be, and way higher than it should have been (maybe 175 +/-). 

                      Yesterday, I ran 3 miles, where the 2nd and 3rd mile were at 149bpm at a controlled pace in a controlled environment, while normally, those miles are at 144 (same conditions).  I blame the increased bpm on the high effort and fatigue following my bike ride in hot conditions outing on Monday.

                       

                      Regardless, I'm not sure that the Maffetone method works for soccer / hockey conditioning.  I believe that the low HR training is better suited for endurance, and less suited for interval sprints that you see in those sports.  (I'm likely wrong there, though, and some Maffetone people may chime in and correct me).

                       

                      If nothing else, collect the data, and use it in 5 or 10 years to see progress and / or consistency.  All data is good!


                      Cheers,

                      2014 Goals:

                      #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                      #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                       

                      Scout7


                      CPT Curmudgeon

                        To expand on things, I will start off by saying that I work in application development, and do a lot of database work right now with financial information.  It is all about numbers and metrics and analysis and whatnot.  I mention this bit of information to show that I have some level of familiarity with data, terms, and concepts, nothing more.

                         

                        In my experience, "data" is just that: data.  It is a collection of tidbits that have no real meaning in and of themselves.  It is not "information" until a context has been applied.  Information has meaning to it, data does not.

                         

                        So, what does this mean?  In my opinion, it means that outside of a specific training context, the tidbits of gathered data are completely meaningless and arbitrary.  Having a heart rate value does nothing unless you have a framework against which you can apply that number to derive its meaning.  Is 133 too high, too low, or just right?  Of course, you also need to have some sort of general idea of what you were trying to accomplish for the work out, which is another piece of context that needs to be applied.  You cannot know if a number is too high or too low unless you know what the range is that you are looking for, and to get that range, you need to have a training framework.

                         

                        Now, this training framework does not have to be complex.  Like I said, I have tended to keep mine simple, but I could make it even simpler if I wanted to, by changing the metrics I use for measuring success.  Ultimately, it comes down to your goals.  What do you want to get out of your running?  List those out and rank them in order of importance to yourself.  Then you develop your training context around those goals.

                         

                        For example, if my goal was to maintain a healthy lifestyle and a general level of aerobic fitness, I would probably have a training framework that did not involve using races as a measurement of success, but rather how often during the week I ran, for how long, and my general overall health.  Perhaps I use numbers from my doctor as well.  I do not need to race to be successful, but I still might if I get the itch.

                         

                        Make sense?

                           All data is good!


                           

                           

                          I use to have the following sign on my desk; "In God We Trust. Everybody Else Bring Data."

                           

                          Part of what I do is data collection. Not all data is good but one can sure make it look good !

                           

                          My question to you KerCanDo; So the next day your heart rate was 4 bpm faster than what you would expect but what did knowing that change?

                           

                          If you didn't have that information would 4 bpm faster show up on the precieved effort radar?

                          www.hplg.net  The Human Powered League - Solo Cup Series - Trail Building

                            I use to have the following sign on my desk; "In God We Trust. Everybody Else Bring Data."

                             

                            Part of what I do is data collection. Not all data is good but one can sure make it look good !

                             

                            My question to you KerCanDo; So the next day your heart rate was 4 bpm faster than what you would expect but what did knowing that change?

                             

                            If you didn't have that information would 4 bpm faster show up on the precieved effort radar?

                             

                            SloHand, it didn't change much.  I guess it told me that I wasn't fully recovered from my Monday training outing.  Honestly, during the run yesterday, I felt the same as I normally do, and was surprised when I saw the information.  My perceived effort was the same as normal.

                            2014 Goals:

                            #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                            #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                             

                              SloHand, it didn't change much.  I guess it told me that I wasn't fully recovered from my Monday training outing.  Honestly, during the run yesterday, I felt the same as I normally do, and was surprised when I saw the information.  My perceived effort was the same as normal.

                               

                              Thanks for the answers.

                               

                              I probably run too fast according to the heart rate training methods I've read about. The thing is...I enjoy that pace. That's my groove and when I'm in my groove I run farther, I feel better and enjoy it more.

                              www.hplg.net  The Human Powered League - Solo Cup Series - Trail Building

                              xor


                                "All data is good".

                                 

                                No.  For the most part, it is noise.

                                 

                                (also, data are)

                                 

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