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What needs training? (Read 953 times)

    So I ran the MDI marathon last weekend.  I finished in 3:20, my target time was 3:11.  
    As many have experienced I had a significant slowdown in miles 20-26, at mile 19 I was on target for 3:11.  
    In particular 23 and 24 were 9:30 and 9:53, my race blew up in those 2 miles.
     
    I chose 3:11 for a pace based on a Hilly/hot 25k I ran in September where I averaged 7:08,
    and plugged that value into the McMillan
    Calculator.  Given the difference in conditions cool/hot hills similar, I thought that was a rational race pace.
     
    MDI has some significant uphills in Miles 20-24, and that accounts for some of the slowdown.  
     
    Mile  Split          Cum Pace
    19	07:24.0	3:11:31 
    20 07:47.0 3:12:08
    21 07:56.0 3:12:53
    22 07:45.0 3:13:21
    23 09:32.0 3:15:48
    24 09:53.0 3:18:26
    25 08:28.0 3:19:22
    26 08:00.0 3:19:45
     
    I'm not hugely disappointed, nor am I ecstatic.  
    I'm trying to figure out how to train for  the last 6 miles of the Marathon.
    I've averaged about 200 miles a month for the last 6 months, 
    I didn't have as many very long runs as I would typically do.  2 20 2 18
    numerous 16.  I would typically do 1 quality day of LT or Intervals a week, 
    and a second day of Fartleks or a medium long 8-10.
     
    My thoughts are along the following lines.
    1. Run more miles (average 60 instead of 50)
    2. Work on leg strength (hills, plyometrics, weights)
    3. Maintain consistency (keep doing what I'm doing, over time it will pay dividends)

     

    How do I figure out what in my physiology is in most need of training. ( Running Economy, LT, VO2max, General endurance.)?

    xor


      general endurance.  Plus LT stuff because that is goodness anyway.

       

      Also, maybe pick a race that doesn't have so much up in the last 4 miles.  (but this is secondary)

       

        Can we see your splits for the first 18?

          From your list of 3 things I would say 1 and 3.  At this point, to improve in the marathon you just need to improve fitness.  Period.  50 is not enough, 60 would be better but 70 would be even better and so on.   The details aren't that important just get there and stay there for awhile. 

          Scout7


          CPT Curmudgeon

            First don't worry about what "system" or part of your physiology needs training.  They all need training.

             

            Second, based on the description you posted, you went out too hard for the course/conditions/your current level of fitness.  I would say that based on what you've described, it sounds like a combination of course and fitness.

             

            What you can do for next time:

             

            Focus on consistency over any specific workout.  Get out there as often as you can.

             

            Run hills.  But not for leg strength; focus on feeling smooth and fluid on the way up and down.

             

            More miles will definitely pay off.  50 may work for some, but it sounds like you would benefit from more.

             

            Intervals may or may not be beneficial for you at the marathon, depending on how you are doing them.

             

            Mostly, though, it's a matter of experience.  Experience in plain running, experience in racing, experience in managing effort, and experience in determining when your goals are beyond your current reach or not.


            No Talent Drips

              MDI in 2005 was my first marathon and I had a very similar exeperience. I was on track for a BQ with about 3 minutes to spare at mile 21 and wound up missing that mark by just under 2 minutes (basically dropped 5 minutes off pace over the last 5 miles--actually 3.5--from 21 to 24.5-- on that course).

               

              In hindsight, I'm thrilled I had this experience. I pissed me off and motivated me to run more and to run hills. Next marathon was a 16+ min PR. More miles, and more hills. I was in better shape.


              MDI is a tough course and I think that the timing of those final LOOOONNNNGGGG hills serves to emphasize any weakness-- undertraining, overtraining, injury, mental lapse; they just get magnified in this stretch. My advice is to take the lesson, and use it as motivation for the next one. More miles, more hills.

               

              MTA: What Scout said.

               

               

              DoppleBock


                I agree with Jeff - Can not know the whole story without 1st 18 mile splits.

                http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                 

                  By popular demand here are all my splits. 
                  Keep in mind this is a course with rolling hills, so the up hill splits are mostly  7:20-7:40
                  and the downhill ones are 7:00-7:10.  My overall pace mostly is pretty consistent.
                  Mile 8-9 I had a bio break, so 7:39 is more like 7:20.
                  mile	split	        cum	        pace 
                  1 07:09.0 07:09.0 3:07:20
                  2 07:44.0 14:53.0 3:14:58
                  3 07:33.0 22:26.0 3:15:55
                  4 07:02.0 29:28.0 3:13:00
                  5 07:08.0 36:36.0 3:11:47
                  6 07:11.0 43:47.0 3:11:11
                  7 07:13.0 51:00.0 3:10:53
                  8 07:08.0 58:08.0 3:10:23
                  9 07:39.0 1:05:47 3:11:30
                  10 07:23.0 1:13:10 3:11:42
                  11 07:12.0 1:20:22 3:11:25
                  12 07:30.0 1:27:52 3:11:51
                  13 07:04.0 1:34:56 3:11:20
                  14 07:25.0 1:42:21 3:11:32
                  15 07:16.0 1:49:37 3:11:28
                  16 07:10.0 1:56:47 3:11:14
                  17 07:17.0 2:04:04 3:11:13
                  18 07:25.0 2:11:29 3:11:23
                  19 07:24.0 2:18:53 3:11:31
                  20 07:47.0 2:26:40 3:12:08
                  21 07:56.0 2:34:36 3:12:53
                  22 07:45.0 2:42:21 3:13:21
                  23 09:32.0 2:51:53 3:15:48
                  24 09:53.0 3:01:46 3:18:26
                  25 08:28.0 3:10:14 3:19:22
                  26 08:00.0 3:18:14 3:19:45
                  27 01:50.0 3:20:04
                   

                    Are your long runs anywhere near your goal marathon pace? Do you do any kind of intervals near marathon pace that in one workout add up to a significant distance? I'm wondering if you haven't bridged the connection between your long run fueling and your speedier training in a way that can be applied to a long race.

                      What made you slow down? What was the feeling?

                        Are your long runs anywhere near your goal marathon pace? Do you do any kind of intervals near marathon pace that in one workout add up to a significant distance? I'm wondering if you haven't bridged the connection between your long run fueling and your speedier training in a way that can be applied to a long race.

                         

                        Good questions.  No and No.

                         

                        My intervals are typically either LT pace (10 mile race pace)  and 1000-1600 with very short recovery (30sec - 1 min)

                         

                        Or they are 5k-10k pace between 400-1000 with somewhat longer recovery (1-3 min).

                         

                        I did notice some plans with 1 run per week at Marathon pace, and perhaps this is one thing I'm missing.

                          Good questions.  No and No.

                           

                          My intervals are typically either LT pace (10 mile race pace)  and 1000-1600 with very short recovery (30sec - 1 min)

                           

                          Or they are 5k-10k pace between 400-1000 with somewhat longer recovery (1-3 min).

                           

                          I did notice some plans with 1 run per week at Marathon pace, and perhaps this is one thing I'm missing.

                           

                          I feel that it's worthwhile putting some marathon pace miles in towards the end of long runs. It's easy to run at marathon pace at the beginning of a long run; but that doesn't really prepare you for the difficult part of the race.

                           

                          That said, I've still to crack the fading badly in the last few miles of a marathon thing.

                            What made you slow down? What was the feeling?

                             

                            It was entirely fatigue in my legs, sort of like you might feel at the end of a long day of backpacking/mountain climbing.  They were just very painful to move.  As soon as I stopped, I experienced significant cramping.

                             

                            My lungs were fine I was nowhere near my LT threshold.

                              You went out a little too fast for your current fitness. Not by much, mind you--you were close. Run more. And what Scout said.

                              Runners run.

                                I feel that it's worthwhile putting some marathon pace miles in towards the end of long runs. It's easy to run at marathon pace at the beginning of a long run; but that doesn't really prepare you for the difficult part of the race.

                                 

                                That said, I've still to crack the fading badly in the last few miles of a marathon thing.

                                 

                                 

                                I'm starting to like the Hanson plan 

                                http://www.hansons-running.com/images/trainingplans/advanced.pdf

                                 

                                The big differences to what I'm doing now, is the weekly run at Marathon goal pace between 6-10 miles.  And less emphasis on the long run, rather than 20 on Sunday you do 10 Sat 16 Sun so you start your long run somewhat fatigued.

                                 

                                My second workout is somewhat haphazard, more just whatever I feel like or none at all if I'm tired.

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