Running with a faster group (Read 944 times)

Boo.

 

another one has it right.

 

Batensmack, you've been training for a while. The best way to make a leap in your running abilities is to run with faster people. Do it.

 

All you people talking about the RISK:

 

The true RISK is selling yourself short because you're worried about the internet wisdom that every time you take a RISK in your running you're going to end up RISKing something. Well sure you're taking a RISK.

 

RISK is what this sport is about. RISK it. You might hurt your leg. You might become a better runner.

I see what your point and I would actually agree with you.  But there is a difference between "taking risks" and "being reckless and stupid and not-well-planned". 

Personally, I would not recommend someone who runs 5k at 7:30 pace and 10k at 8:30 pace and a half at 9:30 pace to just jump on and do 3-mile tempo run at 7:30 pace 3 days before a 10k race.  I might actually tell him to do 800m tempo at 8:00 pace the day before the race (incidentally, it's pretty customary for Japanese elite runners to do 1km tempo the day before the race and, when I told that to Greg McMillan, he said he's too scared to do that with his runners). 

Batensmack:

I haven't responded to your lengthy e-mail yet--sorry!  I'll get to it soon.  But from what I see in your PBs, you need to run more to build stamina.  Take risks on going far, not fast (at least, not yet).  Instead of trying to see how fast you can hang on for 2~3 miles; but try to see how far you can hang on at 8:45 pace...or 8:30 pace. 

Beards' story is cool but I'd classify that more or less as an exception--that's why it's in the Guines book.  When I did 3 races in the same weekend--I ran a 10k Saturday AM, 5-miler midnight (it was called "Only Fools Run At Mienight and I loved that race; I still have the T-shirt) and another 10k Sunday AM.  That wasn't very smart but I could handle it because I was running close to 100MPW and able to handle things like that--interestingly, the 5-miler was the toughest one and I knew I could handle them and I wanted to see how I'd feel.  When Yoko Shibui ran San Francisco marathon 4 weeks before Berlin World Championships and some Japanese so-called experts criticised, it was actually very carefully calculated "taking risks".  I was there and a part of decision making.  She ended up not being able to participate but it was from something else; not from running a marathon 4 weeks before.  If anything, in fact, that sort of put her in a good stead.  We were actually pretty nervous because it was a risk; but it worked for good because we thought very hard about doing it--it came from carefully planned approach; not from on-line message board or a thought like "Oh, it would be fun..."

 

I see what your point and I would actually agree with you.  But there is a difference between "taking risks" and "being reckless and stupid and not-well-planned". 

I agree, but a 6-8 mile run with some faster folks? If this qualifies as stupid, reckless, and not-well-planned, then man you need to see me living my life.

In the early stage of a runner's career, it is difficult to be intelligent and to think through training because everything is literally in motion. The runner does not know himself, having not yet undertaken sufficient trials of miles. And this is the source of the new runner's anxiety. The runner wants to be intelligent, but literally lacks the experience required to be thoughtful and intelligent.

What to do in this situation? There are two ways to approach it, broadly speaking. The runner can be conservative, run everything easy, slowly and persistently accumulating experience. This is the path most recommended, and it's a wise one. It's mostly what we experienced runners wish we had done, looking back on our careers from the privileged perspective of experience.

But there is a second way to approach this situation of ignorance. You throw yourself at your task with reckless and wild abandon. You push the limits and ride the wild edge. You're frustrated a lot, elated very infrequently. You look always for the breakthrough. You think of yourself as a wild animal, your body's limits as a cage, and you SHAKE the bars, sometimes quite madly. This way of approaching the situation is the way in which experienced runners actually gained self-knowledge, the wisdom that we acquired, and we want others to come by it more easily, with fewer setbacks, with more consistent progress.

Perhaps the method you choose will have more to do with your temperament as a person. But my opinion is that the limits of what we can achieve are so far beyond common conceptions, that we cannot find them through measured judgment. We can only find them wildly and blindly, and often through setbacks and suffering. Once these limits have been located, then we can negotiate them intelligently.

Of course, the REAL right answer is probably a middle path between these two extremes. But it is in the middle, and not at one end--of that I am sure.

Of course, the REAL right answer is probably a middle path between these two extremes. But it is in the middle, and not at one end--of that I am sure.

I think that your post right here hits the nail on the head for me.  How do we find that middle ground?  I think that maybe that means that we have to approach both edges, to see what it is like.  But I have come to the conclusion that the middle ground is where I want to be.  Take risks, but be smart,

I'm older, and what I have found is that I need to pay attention to recovery, more so than in my earlier days.  But that doesn't mean that I can't drop the hammer on my hard days.  I'm doing that more these days.  I'm being cautious while at the same time seeing value in taking risks.  It's all good.

I went out and ran a preview of the 10k course yesterday and it's got a really nasty hill/mountain in the middle of it.  I think that, rather than try to run with the faster group on Wednesday before the race, I'm going to go hit the steep part of that hill two or three times for some intensity - run up the hill, maybe jog/walk back down.  This gives me a couple of benefits - a quality workout a couple of days before the race that I'm pretty sure I can recover from (I run hills constantly due to where I live), and the mental edge of knowing just how hard/high that part of the hill is.  I'll also run a mile or two before and after the hills easy.  My only real question is whether I should do this on Tuesday or Wednesday?

The week after that, I'll take up running with the faster group on Wednesday (assuming I'm feeling fine) and see how it goes.  If I can't keep up, then fine.  But looking at the group runs from the past, they run a lot flatter courses than I do in my usual training, so I'm not sure that someone who's running 8:45 on a flat course is really running a lot faster than I am at 9:30 pace on significant hills.  That's why I'll try to keep up with the 8:15 group.  If they choose to run at 7:30, then I'll probably get smoked, but it might turn into a goal to be able to keep up with this crew as I continue to build base and endurance.  Maybe I'll be able to hang with them by the end of the summer or so.  

Again, thanks for all the thoughtful responses.