HIIT or MAF? (Read 1201 times)

Alrighty, poking my head out for the first time here, like so many other folks that found this place from CR. I've got a question, but first some history. I'm a new runner that finished C25k back in September. About halfway through, I read about LHR training, so I started that in Wk 5 of C25k, then completed the "One Hour Runner" program (a slightly less well known program from CR) also following LHR training. I've kept it up since then. I run a 13:30-14:15 training pace under MAF. I've been doing it for a while, but haven't seen any dramatic increases in MAF pace since starting. I ran my first 5k, a tough bridge run, in Dec with a chip time of 27:41, which I was very proud of. Unlike most folks drawn to running, I don't have any huge desire to run really long races. I can see myself running a 10k one day, maybe a HM at the outside, but I'd really like to specialize in short races (5k and the mile), and hopefully get good enough to place in the top 10 regularly on a local (small city of ~300,000) level. This all started because of a general fitness goal that I decided on about 9 months ago of maxing the USMC PFT at some point, which requires 3 miles in 18min or less (among other things). I'm not military, nor will I be, but this is a high bar that I want to shoot for. Since starting on this goal, I've realized that that is going to take me a long time to get to, if I ever even get there. Most of my reading has been on running sites like CR, and they all stress the need for building volume of easy miles to build base. On the other hand, I read some bodyweight training forums for some of the other aspects of the PFT, and those guys all stress HIIT (high intensity interval training) for all cardiovascular development, and cite research articles that demonstrate that it builds both anaerobic and aerobic base simultaneously. I've been going with the aerobic base building at MAF so far, but was recently referred to a thread at another forum (thread here) that makes me think that I might be better off running intervals as my primary work for a while. I realize this is very unorthodox in the running community, but I'm considering giving it a try based on what I've read, and figure that at the worst, if it doesn't work, I can return to MAF running any time I want. So, I've read the thread and gotten that take on it, but what do some of the more experienced runners think about this approach? Thanks, Brandon

Tell us your plan and MPW now. I would not recommend HIIT if you want to continue to improve long term. Start working in a tempo run and 4-6 quick 15 sec. striders once or twice per week. This will enhance your progress without tearing down your base. Also, increasing your miles will make your times go down.

I don't have a long time runner's base, but I'm pretty solidly fit by most standards.

Sounds like you are trying to rush things, which is a good way to get injured. Lance Armstrong was pretty solidly fit too, and he ended up with a stress fracture. Gradually build up to more miles.

Hi noteye, I am experimenting with FIRST training, which involves lower mileage and higher intensity running work-outs, combined with cross-training for recovery. If you're interested, there is a group for runners interested in FIRST-like training here. I have collected a few research papers which talk about the benefits of interval training (see the "Research" thread in the group's forum). Note that I would not call the intervals in the FIRST plan HIIT, they are the traditional 400m, 800m, ... interval work-outs. (but I have experimented with HIIT sessions on the stationary bike.) Also note that although HIIT is a relatively new term (which I think of as very short high intensity 30s workbouts, not necessarily running), interval training has been part of running for over 50 years. Note that I am a bit of a novice runner and have only recently started this type of training after running easy for over a year. I am also more interested in longer distances (up to marathon). Since you are interested in shorter distances, developing a big base of miles may be less important than if your were focused on longer distances, but I don''t really know. Whatever you do, it's probably good general advice to adopt it slowly. Btw, since I got a heart rate monitor, I am interested in the area of aerobic fitness and its measurement. Most of my recent running, with the exception of warm-up. cool-down, and recovery intervals has been above my MAF heart rate, so I am interested in seeing the impact on my heart rate profile. Note that for this graph I am using the spreadsheet to fit a line to the heart rate vs. pace data. I only have two data points for January (collected this morning), so I think its too soon to say if there is any trend, one way or the other. Note that I think that by collecting at least two pace/heart rate data points is better than the MAF test which involves only one data point (i.e., the pace at your MAF heart rate). Two point allows you to see the both changes in intercept and slope.

runner92: Thanks for the advice from experience. That's what I'm looking for. About Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand though... I know that the work on the elliptical won't translate perfectly to the ground. However, my thinking was that it would generally help to ease me back into intense workouts, especially given the totally aerobic nature of what I've been doing. Do you disagree? And you're right, whatever I end up doing, I'm not going to rush right into it and hurt myself (at least not intentionally). I'm an engineer, and typically pretty risk averse. va: Thanks heaps for your post. Sounds like you and I are similarly inclined when it comes to experimenting and Excel data analysis. I like your method adding the additional HR point and looking at slope and intercept like you describe. That sounds right up my alley. I'll definitely check out FIRST and the other links you posted. I also think you're right that what I'm talking about doing is not technically HIIT. The elliptical preparation I discussed doing first would be traditional HIIT though (probably Tabata protocol at first). I've still got some thinking to do about what I'll do exactly, but maybe elliptical traditional HIIT combined with easy running could be the right ticket, at least as a starting place. Thanks to everyone for your input. I'm liking RA as my new running forum home.

noteye, can you make your log public so we can see what you are actually doing from run to run?

...as soon as you start doing ground-based speedwork your muscles will need to adapt to the new imposed demand, and your higher Vo2 max produced by the HIIT sessions on the elliptical won't matter until your legs have adapted. Assuming no injury, adaptation could take anywhere from 2 weeks to several months depending on how well you balance your interval sessions with rest and proper nutrition.

That's the connection I wasn't making. Thanks for explaining it fully. It helps me understand better. I hadn't considered that in a different application, the increase in VO2max wouldn't be the limiting factor.

You will find that HIIT is often cited in the bodybuilding world as the preferred type of cardio. Many people who lift weights as a primary form of exercise are typically not runners; or at least, not long distance runners. The two are very hard to balance, I have been trying unsuccessfully for 5 months. Weight lifting is my one true love and I typically change my exercise goals every 3-6 months. Right now my primary goal is a HM, which means my weights are on the back-burner (I still do it but I can't lift as heavy as I'd like to when I'm not running as many miles). When I lift heavy, I do HIIT twice a week and one regular run. For me, this type of exercise routine helps me lose fat. Since I've cut out HIIT and incorporated more steady-state running, I have gained about 6 pounds and my clothes are tighter. Since your goal is to increase speed, I don't think HIIT is the right answer. I've never found that it made me an overall faster runner (my 5k times did not improve when my primary form of cardio was HIIT) but it does help me burn fat and lose weight easier. One reason HIIT is preferred by weight-lifters is that it continues to keep the metabolism elevated post-workout (this is called EPOC), lifting weights has the same effect on the body. Steady-state cardio does not have the same effect on the body; once you are finished with a steady-state cardio workout your metabolism returns to normal. Steady-state cardio is good for overall health and for the heart; I am not saying one is better than the other, they just affect the body in different ways and should be chosen based on the goal you are striving toward. If you are interested in experimenting with HIIT, you could consider incorporate it into a form of cross-training. HIIT does not have to be done as running. You can perform HIIT with any form of cardio exercise: biking, elliptical, swimming, or even just jumping rope. Hope that helps. Good luck with your goal!