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Advice on speedwork for upcoming 10 miler in 10 weeks (Read 1004 times)

    But...I'm glad Nobby frequents RA.  Overall, he makes RA a better place for training advice.

     

     

    Definitely!

       

      But...I'm glad Nobby frequents RA.  Overall, he makes RA a better place for training advice.

       

       

      Same  HERE, I agree....  Most of what I know about running I have learned in the past 3 or 4 years and most of it has been from the various NOBBY posts and from a few emails that I have exchanged with him.   Its nice to have someone with his credentials to comment........

       

      OH YEAH, Spaniel knows a thing or two about running too...........I've gotten a LOT of solid advice from him also....

      Champions are made when no one is watching


      Feeling the growl again

         

         

        But...I'm glad Nobby frequents RA.  Overall, he makes RA a better place for training advice.

         

         

         

        +100.  I have utmost respect for Nobby and I hope after all these years that he knows it.

         

        Most of us have made posts we wish we had phrased differently or came across a way other than intented (I know I have).

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

          A famous American once said [and I take this to heart anytime I even think about Speedwork]:

           

          "Speedwork is the Icing on the Cake; but you don't have a Cake yet"

            A famous American once said [and I take this to heart anytime I even think about Speedwork]:

             

            "Speedwork is the Icing on the Cake; but you don't have a Cake yet"

             

            that really depends on what you mean by speed work.  To think that you should never do speed work, I believe, is flawed. How would you know when you "have the cake?"

              Its quite interesting to read all the responses out here ... from those that specifically address the question asked to those that provoke thought about whether this is the right question to ask in the first place. This healthy debate is surely one of the best ways to learn more about the sport and one of the reasons why RA is such an attraction for me.

               

              I am just getting back to running after a brief hiatus and have for myself decided that for the first couple of weeks, i will just get my base mileage up before i start layering in the tempo workouts and interval workouts. In my running life, i have done less than probably 4-5 interval sessions as i used to believe that i didnt have an aerobic engine (yet) that could benefit from doing all the interval training (i.e. the cake was missing). Perhaps, doing intervals once in a while will help create a small part of the cake as i go along. I do strides though during my recovery runs and I quite like to do them.

               

              Also, big thumbsup to Spaniel, Jeff, Nobby, and all the other experienced runners here. Thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom.

               

              Useful to note - Difference of opinion or disagreement doesnt mean any disrespect, quite far from it actually on this forum.

              I dont sweat. I ooze liquid awesome.


              HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                I've heard a friend talk about doing something like 8+ mile repeats at sub-5 pace, on a team workout. That probably had to be close to 5K or sub-5K pace for some of them. But this was a collegiate team, and I'm sure that they were doing over 70mpw. I think 3x1mile repeats at 5K pace is tough, at least with short recovery - I've never attempted 5x.

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                Feeling the growl again

                  that really depends on what you mean by speed work.  To think that you should never do speed work, I believe, is flawed. How would you know when you "have the cake?"

                   

                  The last good coach I had spent a good deal of time talking about Five Pace Training.  In a nutshell you have:

                   

                  Recovery pace

                  Easy pace

                  Tempo pace

                  Mile pace

                  Sprint pace

                   

                  (Those may not have been the exact definitions but you get the idea)

                   

                  The idea was that as you switch phases it's not that you QUIT doing running of any pace....you simply change the proportion of your running done at each pace.  So when you are in base phase you will use the fastest two sparingly.  When you are approaching a goal 5K, you will use them a LOT more often.

                   

                  So "speed work" never goes away....you may just do a tiny bit vs a lot.

                   

                  I am guilty of not keeping enough faster work in there.  I believe the injury problems I am dealing with now are actually rooted in that, I ran a lot of miles at a slow speed so everything tightened up.  Now I'm working on that and hopefully I've learned my lesson.  Smile

                  "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                   

                    So, ultimately though....if you haven't been running your whole life and can just know by looking at a workout on paper that it is right for you, the best way to get an appropriate workout is to sign up with something like Nobby's Running Wizard so you can get taylored plans to your fitness level and ability? Basically, I'm asking if there is anything that would help a person like me be able to say, "oh wow....5xmile repeats is way over my head, I'd better cut it down to 3"  I think that I am a runner who tends to not really know exactly how far to push myself, I do think that for interval work I should feel a bit of discomfort! So I have a hard time deciding when I am just working hard or when I pushing myself to far.

                     

                    I am loving this thread discussion though! Probably one of the best for threads that I have read to be able to personally apply. Thanks to all of you!


                    Closed for repairs

                      Basically, I'm asking if there is anything that would help a person like me be able to say, "oh wow....5xmile repeats is way over my head, I'd better cut it down to 3"  I think that I am a runner who tends to not really know exactly how far to push myself, I do think that for interval work I should feel a bit of discomfort! So I have a hard time deciding when I am just working hard or when I pushing myself to far.

                       

                       

                      I'm puzzled by this.  Wouldn't the best way to determine this be to go and do the workout?  If you start out at 3x and that seems to easy, either run them slightly faster next time or add a rep at the same pace, depending on what you are trying to do.  The way you learn how hard to push yourself is just by doing it again and again.  

                       


                      Closed for repairs

                        I raced a 5K earlier this summer and thought I should be able to go out and run 10 x 400m intervals for one "speed workout" but could only make it to seven before i just collapsed and could barely run home. Is there a good way to tell when you are looking at a workout if it is just to ambitious for you and your current fitness?? What is the line between killing yourself and pushing yourself to get better??

                         

                        Like in this example you tried it and couldn't complete it.  That simply means you ran them too fast.  Slow down to a pace you can complete the workout, then after doing it repeatedly you will get faster.  To know whether you are running them "too hard" try to leave yourself feeling like you could have done another one at the end.  It's all trial and error, not from a book.  Use the book or tables or whatever as general guidelines to get started. 

                         


                        Feeling the growl again

                          So, ultimately though....if you haven't been running your whole life and can just know by looking at a workout on paper that it is right for you, the best way to get an appropriate workout is to sign up with something like Nobby's Running Wizard so you can get taylored plans to your fitness level and ability? Basically, I'm asking if there is anything that would help a person like me be able to say, "oh wow....5xmile repeats is way over my head, I'd better cut it down to 3"  I think that I am a runner who tends to not really know exactly how far to push myself, I do think that for interval work I should feel a bit of discomfort! So I have a hard time deciding when I am just working hard or when I pushing myself to far.

                           

                          I am loving this thread discussion though! Probably one of the best for threads that I have read to be able to personally apply. Thanks to all of you!

                           

                          You can't think of this as "I need to know exactly what to do for this one workout and nail it perfectly."

                           

                          You need to think more like "I'm going to do a couple less repeats than it lists and do them on the conservative side of pacing.  I will learn from this workout and within 2-3 workouts I will find where I need to be."

                           

                          If you run a single workout too slow you will get more benefit than over-extending yourself and blowing up, completing only a partial and ill-run workout.  Plus you will learn something.  All that blowing up tells you is that you went too fast.  How much too fast?  Hard to say.

                           

                          As I said before, and canned or formulaic recommendation is only a starting point.  There is simply no substitute for getting out there, doing a workout, and adjusting the next one to how it went for you.

                           

                          Should you feel a "little discomfort"?  Sure.  But newer runners tend to blow right past that and race the workouts.  If you take more than a day or two to fully recover, you ran it too hard.  If you can't run the last interval faster than the first, you ran them too hard.

                           

                          As a newer runner, start with about 3 miles' worth of intervals (perhaps fewer if it's a set of 400s).  See how it goes.  If it was too easy, then either speed them up a bit the next time or add another half mile of intervals.  I've been running for 20 years and when I'm coming back to intervals after a long time, I still use this strategy.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           

                          Julia1971


                            So, ultimately though....if you haven't been running your whole life and can just know by looking at a workout on paper that it is right for you, the best way to get an appropriate workout is to sign up with something like Nobby's Running Wizard so you can get taylored plans to your fitness level and ability? Basically, I'm asking if there is anything that would help a person like me be able to say, "oh wow....5xmile repeats is way over my head, I'd better cut it down to 3"  I think that I am a runner who tends to not really know exactly how far to push myself, I do think that for interval work I should feel a bit of discomfort! So I have a hard time deciding when I am just working hard or when I pushing myself to far.

                             

                            I am loving this thread discussion though! Probably one of the best for threads that I have read to be able to personally apply. Thanks to all of you!

                             

                            +1 to L Train and Spaniel.  I would also add that a lot of the cookie cutter training plans - at least in the books that I've read like Daniels and Pfitz - do have "do not attempt this workout until"-type guidance in the text.  It's just that in our impatience to get better, we never read that part and just go straight to the training plans in the back.  I know I was guilty of this as a beginner.  So, make sure you're reading the context in which the workout is being recommended.  For example, Daniels doesn't recommend mile intervals for slower runners at all.  But, the training plan just says "1200m or mile".  I used to read the "or" as a choice - like, if I could gut out the miles, I should do them.  But after finally reading the book, I realized he meant someone as slow as I am should be doing 1200s instead.

                            Run the mile you are in.

                              As someone who started faster workouts in the past 1 year, for me it was definitely tough to gauge effort and I think it's quite normal to wonder if you are doing enough or are in fact overdoing it.  McMillan's calculator has been very helpful to me in this regard. Run a race and set your paces from that workout (not your PR times), start out at the slower end of his recommended paces. In about 3-4 weeks (or longer in my case) you'll settle into the perfect paces for the workout at hand without thinking too much about it, how that happens is a mystery to me.  For example, from my recent workouts, did  6 X 400 in 92-95 seconds, the 5 X 600 in 145-150 seconds (100 seconds for 400 m), 4 X 800 in 210 sec and so on.  Call it unconscious brain regulation or whatever else but you will settle into the right pace. Will be a bit slower depending on if I overdid it a bit the prior week, weather conditions or my diet etc, or sometimes the workout feels surprisingly easy and that's when I know I am making progress.  My mile Time Trial recently did not feel like an all out race yet was about 20 seconds faster than a similar workout last year.  Now translating that mile speed gain into longer races is a bit tougher and takes more work than I am doing at present.

                              Julia1971


                                As someone who started faster workouts in the past 1 year, for me it was definitely tough to gauge effort and I think it's quite normal to wonder if you are doing enough or are in fact overdoing it.  McMillan's calculator has been very helpful to me in this regard. Run a race and set your paces from that workout (not your PR times), start out at the slower end of his recommended paces. In about 3-4 weeks (or longer in my case) you'll settle into the perfect paces for the workout at hand without thinking too much about it, how that happens is a mystery to me.  For example, from my recent workouts, did  6 X 400 in 92-95 seconds, the 5 X 600 in 145-150 seconds (100 seconds for 400 m), 4 X 800 in 210 sec and so on.  Call it unconscious brain regulation or whatever else but you will settle into the right pace. Will be a bit slower depending on if I overdid it a bit the prior week, weather conditions or my diet etc, or sometimes the workout feels surprisingly easy and that's when I know I am making progress.  My mile Time Trial recently did not feel like an all out race yet was about 20 seconds faster than a similar workout last year.  Now translating that mile speed gain into longer races is a bit tougher and takes more work than I am doing at present.

                                 

                                I still struggle with figuring out pace. I feel like I really only feel comfortable with two paces: really fast and really slow. Everything in the middle is a bit of a mystery to me so I too like to use some type of calculator or guide. I like Daniels more than McMillan for training paces, but both are helpful.

                                Run the mile you are in.

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