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anyone NOT hit the wall during marathon? (Read 7487 times)


Prince of Fatness


    And I guess the only reason I'd question what you are saying about newer marathoners being more predisposed to bonking is because very few of us (relatively) are actually racing the marathon, or running up against that red line of our potential for 26.2 miles.  However, you and other experienced people are. 

     

    Last year was only my 2nd marathon.  Maybe others would disagree, but it sure felt like I was racing it.  I guess it depends on what you call racing.  I agree that it has less to do with speed and more to do with understanding your fitness level and racing (or whatever you want to call it) to it.

    Semi-retired.


    Feeling the growl again

      Trent's explanation of an all-out bonk is spot on.  I did that during my first marathon, went out WAY too fast and started down the long, long bonk road at 16 miles.  However I did not fully "hit the wall" until around mile 22.  For the last quarter mile I began losing my peripheral vision and in the finishing chute my buddy's girlfriend was screaming at me from 6 feet away and I never heard her.  I curled up on the ground and drank a 6-pack of Pepsi in five minutes (all that was at hand) and things started to come around.

       

      Mikey's contention that it is not usually a sudden thing is also correct.  Through experience, I had a couple later marathons where I was solidly on the road to bonking but saw it coming and slowed my pace enough to suffer through without going into complete meltdown.

       

      In my faster races I have not managed to go through a marathon without slowing down the last 2-3 miles, but this has probably been 20% energy depletion and 80% fatigue from putting in a hard effort.  There is a difference between fatiguing a muscle and not being able to provide it with fuel.

       

      I have to disagree with Dopple Bock's assertion of lactic acid buildup in a marathon.  I doubt even the elites are running close enough to threshhold to experience significant lactic acid buildup that would actually slow them down, marathon pace is just too slow.  That is why you can sustain it so long.  I always had an unusual ability to stay much closer to threshhold for marathons than most (I ran 2:29 off a hard-earned 33:30 recent 10K PR) so I feel pretty safe in saying this.

       

      Personally I feel a lot of people WAY over-fuel for the marathon.  If you are trying to consume more than 400-500 calories MAX during a marathon you are risking a cramp or GI issues way more than you are helping yourself.  Glycogen is easy to break down, an excellent fuel at MP, and you should have enough on hand to get you through 20 miles or so.  You just need to take in enough for those few extra miles, and you'll burn a little fat towards that as well.  I typically put on 2-3lbs during the last 2 weeks before a marathon, partly from reduced training load not artificially holding it down and partly from eating a bit more the last few days to make sure I am never hungry.

       

      People ran fast marathons before we had GU and all that.  I usually carry 4 and if paced correctly that's plenty.  When I see people carrying a belt with like 10 of them and half a gallon of Gatorade I roll my eyes.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

         

        Last year was only my 2nd marathon.  Maybe others would disagree, but it sure felt like I was racing it.  I guess it depends on what you call racing.  I agree that it has less to do with speed and more to do with understanding your fitness level and racing (or whatever you want to call it) to it.

         

        I guess I shouldn't make sweeping statements, it's just a feeling I have, some from personal experience.  There's always something holding me back - "can I hold this pace?", "Did I train well enough for this?", "oh, I'm strating to tire, I'd better slow down"" that sort of thing.  I suspect I am far from alone. 

         

        The closest thing I've come to racing was in the asskicking you gave me.  I had no choice but to run faster than I thought I could, and I did it (despite the wrong result).  Look at the guy in the other thread who was shooting for a 1:35 and came in with a 1:29 because (well maybe not because) he didn't have his Garmin.  I was just theorizing that more experienced racers run closer to their flameout point than we do, and that could make them more susceptible to the Wall.      

         


        Prince of Fatness

          The closest thing I've come to racing was in the asskicking you gave me.  I had no choice but to run faster than I thought I could, and I did it (despite the wrong result).  Look at the guy in the other thread who was shooting for a 1:35 and came in with a 1:29 because (well maybe not because) he didn't have his Garmin.  I was just theorizing that more experienced racers run closer to their flameout point than we do, and that could make them more susceptible to the Wall.      

           

          That race and the 5 mile PR that I ran a few months prior to that were by far the closest I came to running to my fitness level.  In the 5 miler I went out what I thought was too damn fast and was wrong.  In our race I had no choice but to keep you in my sights.  Again I thought it was too fast and was wrong.  I think that both of us are inexperienced racers that underestimate our fitness levels.  Another part of it is that pushing the envelope is uncomfortable and it's too easy to just slow down to feel better.  I'm still trying to work through that.

          Semi-retired.

             

            And I guess the only reason I'd question what you are saying about newer marathoners being more predisposed to bonking is because very few of us (relatively) are actually racing the marathon, or running up against that red line of our potential for 26.2 miles.  However, you and other experienced people are. 

             

            I think this is more a state of mind than a result of experience.  In my first marathon I was racing.  I may have had no business doing so, I may have been executing an extremely poor race strategy, but I was definitely racing.  I also experienced my first full fledged, knock down, drag out bonk-a-rama.  It was one of the worst and best experiences of my life.

             

            You assume that most newer marathoners approach the marathon it with the same caution and reason that you did, but I don't know that that's true.

            Runners run.

               

               

              You assume that most newer marathoners approach the marathon it with the same caution and reason that you did, but I don't know that that's true.

               

              I believe it is, though Trent may ask me to prove it and I can't.  As has been discussed many times here (and I don't want this to be a thread killer), there is more of a focus by more people today on finishing the thing rather than racing it.  People are undertrained or whatever and want to have the experience, but then this Wall term gets bandied about by everyone.  I think that many newer runners refer to hitting the wall but that is in fact not true.  And I'm not sure why that bothers me.  I guess because it's an immediate misdiagnosis of the issue, almost abdicating the responsibility.  If I have a shitty race it's because I had shitty training (unless there are strange circumstances that can hit any of us).   

               

                 

                In my first marathon I was racing.  I may have had no business doing so, I may have been executing an extremely poor race strategy, but I was definitely racing.

                 

                I think you are the exception rather than the rule. 

                 

                   

                  I think that both of us are inexperienced racers that underestimate our fitness levels.  Another part of it is that pushing the envelope is uncomfortable and it's too easy to just slow down to feel better.  I'm still trying to work through that.

                   

                  I don't agree with sentence #1 for me.  I completely agree with the rest.  I haven't learned to accept and deal with the pain, push it aside and keep racing.  I think I need one experience where I successfully do this and my world will change.

                   

                     

                    I think you are the exception rather than the rule. 

                     

                    I honestly don't think I am.  There is a whole world of people out there racing by the seat of their pants.  A lot of these people are not on internet running sites and doing all kinds of research before jumping into the fray.  I see hundreds of these people all around me in races.

                    Runners run.


                    Prince of Fatness

                      L Train, I see just as many threads where first time marathoners have a time goal as those where people just want to finish.  On my first I had a soft time goal but I wanted to do more than just finish.  The second I definitely pushed it more.

                       

                      So I don't think that Mikey is an exception.

                      Semi-retired.

                        All right then, it's likely that I have a misperception (it isn't the first or last time).  I should go run or something.

                         


                        A Dance with Monkeys

                           

                           

                          Trent's explanation of an all-out bonk is spot on. 

                           

                          There is a reason for that.  Sheesh.

                           

                          And what Mikey said:

                          I also experienced my first full fledged, knock down, drag out bonk-a-rama.  It was one of the worst and best experiences of my life.


                          Feeling the growl again

                            Some people have the personality and mental state to go for it even if they completely destroy themselves.  Others are more cautious in their approach.  Each can have their place in the marathon.

                             

                            Gutting it out in a 5K is hard but it's a relatively brief effort.  Really pushing the envolope in a marathon requires prolonged and often repeated efforts as your ability to even think rationally slips away.  Different experiences.  Not everyone is wired this way.  I agree that it has to do more with the individual than the experience level.  Not everyone's goal is to push themselves to that level either.  It takes a special kind of stupidity.

                             

                            In my more experienced marathons I still destroyed myself it just happened 22-23 miles in rather than 16 miles in so the overall pain was less.  In my last one in Louisville I had a different mental state and just opted for the gradual slowdown over being hardcore and destroying myself.  Different goals.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             


                            Pre meet 2007

                              Only one out of my ten marathons I didn't hit the wall, and ran negative splits. It was my fourth time running  Portland, I knew the course well and knew what to expect. All my other marathons were a one time only race, each of them had suprises that effected my pace, and made me bonk a little or a lot at the end.


                              HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                                ...

                                Personally I feel a lot of people WAY over-fuel for the marathon.  If you are trying to consume more than 400-500 calories MAX during a marathon you are risking a cramp or GI issues way more than you are helping yourself.  Glycogen is easy to break down, an excellent fuel at MP, and you should have enough on hand to get you through 20 miles or so.  You just need to take in enough for those few extra miles, and you'll burn a little fat towards that as well.  I typically put on 2-3lbs during the last 2 weeks before a marathon, partly from reduced training load not artificially holding it down and partly from eating a bit more the last few days to make sure I am never hungry.

                                 

                                People ran fast marathons before we had GU and all that.  I usually carry 4 and if paced correctly that's plenty.  When I see people carrying a belt with like 10 of them and half a gallon of Gatorade I roll my eyes.

                                 

                                Wow. I have taken one gu several times, and no gu several times. I think one time I had one and a half, as my high so far. I've never tried more. Might make the last miles more enjoyable -- but then again, it might just make them a bit faster and no more enjoyable. I've never come close to the bonking descriptions you guys give, as far as I can remember. But I get very fatigued in the last miles, and it feels plenty painful -- and I lose interest in messing with liquids. solids, or clothing at all. (I will say that the memory of the pain at the end fades quickly for me -- as spaniel once predicted to me.)

                                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

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