Goal of sub 20 5k (Read 13549 times)

    MR I believe if you run any fast intervals at altitude you can run them just as fast as you do at Maine elevations if it feels comfortable. But no reason to do too much fast stuff before a race. From reading Daniels Running Formula he says the altitude running can really help alot of runners. Your 1st day you can probably run the same effort as you do in Maine. But the 2nd day it will catch up with you. You will not be as fast on long runs but you just need to keep effort the same. I will have to check the book to see what else Daniels says about altitude work.
      I am trying to run 40 miles per week total. The intervals are like 6:00 per mile pace for about 3 miles total with long recoveries in between. Typically 200, 400 meters per rep and occasionally an 800 meter run in 3:02. Tempo runs are 40 minutes total at 7:15 per mile pace or so.
      Hey Michigan, Looks like a more traditional 5K approach, replacing CV intervals with fast intervals. I am very curious to see if this helps you get over the hump combined with a bit more miles per week. I know you want to hit that 20 min mark. You will then have to evaluate how long you keep that higher volume of real fast intervals. You will only hold your peak so long. BUT, I know you want to hit that damn mark and worry about that later. I too am looking to get back to 20 min shape. I am feeling a bit more confident with my upper hammys but I am about a minute per 5K slower right now that when I was last year. Did a 3 mile race last week in 20:09. Last year same race was 19:03 on my 22 miles per week. My body ached after this simple 3 mile run though. Lack of quality runs is why. Right now I am averaging 20 miles with NO quality. I am training for a half in May but would love to be doing tempo or CV intervals.....Slow tempos are my first goal. May take until Fall to have a chance at 20 min for 5K if at all this year.

      Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

        Tchuck...I ran 1.75 miles on the track last evening in 11:39. It was a failed attempt at a 5k time trial. I felt I could handle 12 laps at 1:38 pace which would yield me a 5k pace of around 20:20 but I chickened out after my 1600 time was 6:35. I just cannot handle the mental aspect of the track and the running in circles (running to go nowhere). I don't see how people can run so fast when running 50% of their run on a curve. One leg is taking longer strides for much of the race. What I tried for a warmup last night was 12 minutes warmup (about 1.4 miles) then 10 minutes rest. Then I ran 800 meters in 3:24...following Daniels running formula and surprisingly this 1/2 mile run didn't feel too difficult. I soon wondered if I had run this too fast however and yes I did as it should be a 1/2 mile run at tempo pace but I was within a few seconds of that so I don't think that was the problem with yesterdays run. The problem was I only took about 10 minutes of rest after the 800 meter tempo run to start my 5k time trial attempt. Daniels says to complete this hard run 15-20 minutes before race start...I did feel much better starting my run though even with the long hard 800 meters before the race. Next time I will try to run 600-800 meters at tempo pace and complete it 20 minutes before the race. I think this whole sub 20 thing is like an 800 pound weight on my back. I need to stop obsessing. Just run the miles and race to have fun. A secondary goal of mine is to win the age 35-39 group in our local Playmakers race series. There are 12 races this year. Finishing in 1st place AG wins 10 points....You get 7, 5, 3, and 1 point for finishing 2nd through 5th place respectively in age group. Now I am not that fast but last year because I ran in 9 of the 12 races I ended up in 3rd place in my 30-34 age group since the top runners only competed in a few races. Had I run all 12 races last year and been in the 35-39 AG I would have won that AG by a point or two. So I think I will focus on running more miles and fast intervals with that goal in mind and the sub 20 should fall into place as I hit my peak and get to race courses that are meant for speed.
          Michigan, As you know, you don't want to do high volume fast intervals and races same week. Lower volume is fine like the 4-5 X 200 or 3-4 X 300M Tinman advises. Racing certainly helps you race better. BUT, after 12 races, I have to wonder if you will have aerobic base erosion. I think a 2-4 mile slow run after a race would be beneficial. Yes, you have to ease on the obsession. Also, time trials do not simulate racing. You just don't get up or get hyped for a time trial. You will not perform as well in a time trial, I believe. It is just not the same. Save you all out effort for races. I like to do my warm up closer to the race start. I go slow but my HR tends to jump a little bit probably from anticipation and all the caffeine I just took. My warm up for 5K is is a 1 mile slow warm jog then 300-400M at or close to goal pace about 15-20 min before the race. I may do a couple light stretches in the 10 min before and perhaps a few quick striders while waiting to start.

          Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

            Almost there... knocked another 38 seconds off my PR yesterday coming in at 20:16. There was a really steep hill during mile 3 of this race too so but I have a flatter 5K in a few weeks so I am hoping that I can do it then. Last year I did both of these same races and dropped about 10 seconds on the flatter course, but we'll see if I cant get it, but I think it is definitely looking doable by the end of the summer at the very least.
              Nice race Jeff. I'm close too. I ran a 20:08 on pretty challenging course yesterday. If anyone is interested, I wrote a report in the racing forum under the race's name, The Kevin Cain Make My Day 5K.
                Almost there... knocked another 38 seconds off my PR yesterday coming in at 20:16. There was a really steep hill during mile 3 of this race too so but I have a flatter 5K in a few weeks so I am hoping that I can do it then. Last year I did both of these same races and dropped about 10 seconds on the flatter course, but we'll see if I cant get it, but I think it is definitely looking doable by the end of the summer at the very least.
                Good job jeff and dnice. Looks like you guys run about the same mileage as me. Just your long run is a bit longer than mine. I have been running a 9 miler most Sundays. I was wondering if you guys wear racing flats in your races? I just bought a pair of 6 ounce flats and was wondering if they will make a difference. The guy at the store was surprised I run all my 5k races in 12 ounce trainers. My PR is 20:17 so you both have passed me. I like the goals of 20:40 and 20:20 Jeff set. No reason to get it all (sub 20 in 1st race) when you are not ready. I have a 5k race on April 20 that I ran last year in 21:02. I think I am in shape to run it in about 20:20 this year but I havent raced against competition since January. So I may set a goal of 20:30 or under and if I am running well I may try to crack my PR or sub 20.
                  No racing flats here. Though my coach did recommend me picking some up I just cant justify the cash outflow right now for shoes I will only wear a half dozen times a year. I hear that they can help you drop about 1-2% off your time - so at a 21:00 5K that could potentially be 10-20 seconds (which oddly enough is about what I need to break that barrier - maybe I should rethink the cash thing and suck it up)
                    I train and race in flats. I do most of my easy training in Adidas AdiZero RC's, and do speedwork/race in the PR's. The RC's are something like 6.9 oz., and the PR's are around 3.9 (those weights are both from size 9s I think, I wear 10-10.5). You can really feel the difference when you run in the lighter shoes.
                      Michigan Flyer -- like Jeff I also set some short term goals. For example, I shot for a 20:50 for my March race and 20:20 for yesterdays. I was able to best both goals, which is a nice feeling a perhaps a reason to set short term as well as long term goals. Instead of flats, I wear New Balance 902s, which you would call performance trainers, I guess. They weigh about 8oz but offer some stability control, which I need. I use these for racing, track workouts, and sometimes for tempos. I really like 'em. As for millage, I plan to be at 50 this week and 60 by this time next month. I'm training for the Grandma's marathon in June. I hope to run another 5k in July, so my sub 5 goal will be taking a back seat to marathon training for a little bit now. Good luck to you.
                        No racing flats here. Though my coach did recommend me picking some up I just cant justify the cash outflow right now for shoes I will only wear a half dozen times a year. I hear that they can help you drop about 1-2% off your time - so at a 21:00 5K that could potentially be 10-20 seconds (which oddly enough is about what I need to break that barrier - maybe I should rethink the cash thing and suck it up)
                        I paid $65 for the Adidas Zero RC (same shoe Racing Thought uses for training). They are about 6.4 ounces. For you since your time is dropping maybe you want to stay away from flats. I tried to make it last year without the flats and managed 3 times below 20:30 but I am trying to be very competitive in my age group and break 20 as well so I decided to splurge this year and get the shoes that coulld gain me 10-20 seconds timedrop in a 5k. That could be a position in the standings every race. I figure no need to give my competition the advantage. You may be able to find some flats for $30 if you are lucky but I just bought the only size 10 they had at my local running store.
                          I wish I could run times like yours on low mileage. Just increase the mileage and I bet you will get sub 20 in a tempo run effort. I ran a record 171 miles in March and whether I like it or not I will be faster for it. I was hoping to run a 5k this Saturday but the wife has other plans so my races keep getting pushed back. No biggy I will just keep upping miles. I am thinking about a possible track 5k time trial in the next week. I have my 1st big 5k race on April 20 and I am running that no matter what.
                          I think everyone's body reacts differently to training. For me, lower mileage but faster paced training seems to have a much more beneficial effect than long, slow miles. For example, I clocked much better times on 10-20 miles a week of all tempo paced training than I did on 30+ miles of easy running. Of course, if I could keep the same amount of speed work yet increase my total mileage, then you would probably be right. For now, I am just following Hal Higdon's advanced 5K training guide (except for 1 missed day), which starts at around 20 mpw and peaks at probably somewhere around 30.
                          JimR


                            I clocked much better times on 10-20 miles a week of all tempo paced training than I did on 30+ miles of easy running. Of course, if I could keep the same amount of speed work yet increase my total mileage, then you would probably be right.
                            Quality / quantity isn't exactly an either / or situation. You're doing 400 meter repeats at 80 seconds so you should be able to crack 20 for 5k. If you were doing those same quality workouts on 40 or so miles a week, sub 20 wouldn't be a problem for you at all. You might have to sacrifice the quality while you build mileage, but you should be able to put it back in once you've adjusted to the new base.
                              Quality / quantity isn't exactly an either / or situation. You're doing 400 meter repeats at 80 seconds so you should be able to crack 20 for 5k. If you were doing those same quality workouts on 40 or so miles a week, sub 20 wouldn't be a problem for you at all. You might have to sacrifice the quality while you build mileage, but you should be able to put it back in once you've adjusted to the new base.
                              I have to agree here, but I also think that getting faster has it's plateaus like in weight lifting. When you lift weights and do the same exercises every day eventually you will hit a ceiling. At that point you need to change the exercises you do to hit the muscles a different way and break through. I ran mostly steady miles for quite a few years and plateaued my 5K at 23:30 for oh so long a time. I just couldnt get past it. In fact, I only ran it once and then couldnt even really come close. Then I went to a running clinic and followed their 8 week program which had me running every other day but every day was some sort of interval - varying from 1 minute intervals up to 10-15 minute tempo runs. At the end of the 8 weeks I ran a 22:00 in the 5K. Right now I am working on keeping my mileage up but I still have 1-2 hard workouts in there a week as well.
                                Tchuck...I ran 1.75 miles on the track last evening in 11:39. It was a failed attempt at a 5k time trial. I felt I could handle 12 laps at 1:38 pace which would yield me a 5k pace of around 20:20 but I chickened out after my 1600 time was 6:35.
                                Michigan, sorry to be so plain, but you do way too many time trials on the track and on the treadmill. Save it for races. There is no way I could reproduce a PB effort on my own, and there's no way I'd want to. If you're in 19:55 shape, you probably can't run faster than about 3-4k at that pace on your own, and you get a lousy workout every time you do that. Do some 800s instead and race maybe once a month.