Goal of sub 20 5k (Read 13548 times)

    Last 5k for sjsutton was6:55 pace.
    My mistake. I didn't realize he wasn't just above 20 minutes. Yes, it's best to run intervals at your actual 5k pace, not your goal 5k pace. I spent a spring training like that, and it led to very frustrating race results.
      As always, great advice from Jim we all can listen to. Thanks, I'm glad you take the time to post
      Agree almost totally, except that even 3:15 is too fast--much too fast, actually. I'm a huge believer in basing workout paces off currrent race times rather than goal, except for tiny doses once in a while. Last 5k for sjsutton was6:55 pace. Why run workouts more than 20 seconds a mile faster than you can race? It's so hard to get most runners to buy this, but it's such a better feeling to run them hard enough and have a little left when you finish--and it works too. After you start racing faster doing it this way you will start to have confidence in it. When your race times come down, then quicken the workout pace, but not before. I guarantee you will benefit more from 6 x 800 at 3:25-3:30 with a 200 jog than you will from what you just did. Think "comfortably hard" rather getting to the point that you feel like quitting after every lap. Do a few strides on your easy days to work on turnover. My timing is very bad for bringing this up, since I just did 8 x 400 today for the first time in ages. However, I have rarely gone as fast as current 5k pace in workouts. Almost everything has been 10k pace and slower, except for strides or a couple 200's at the end of a longer workout. I brought my 5k down from 21:30 to 19:04, which is not that easy considering that I starting making the push at 59. After more than 2 years of nothing but threshold and endurance work I decided to throw in a few quicker reps today to try and sharpen up but they will never be the main course.
        Hey, Anyway, just curious what kind of strength training everyone is doing with their running. Everyone seems to be talking about intervals but I'd think strength training would be big part of 5k training. What kind of core workouts? Do you go to the gym and lift weights? Plyometrics? What is best for building speed? Since I'm marathon training I do lots of core work and only low weight high rep leg exercises at the gym. I also do a quick routine of squats and various injury prevention type exercises as my warmup before a run.
        I am weak and skinny so I probably should lift some weights but I had a hernia 2 years ago so I am a little leery of lifting too many weights. I don't do much for core strength. I have been doing 2-3 sets of 4 chin-ups every night. Also 15-20 pushups every couple of days. Its not much but I hope it helps a little with my small muscles. I do about 10 squats after runs too...dont know if that helps or not.
          Agree almost totally, except that even 3:15 is too fast--much too fast, actually. I'm a huge believer in basing workout paces off currrent race times rather than goal, except for tiny doses once in a while. Last 5k for sjsutton was6:55 pace. Why run workouts more than 20 seconds a mile faster than you can race? It's so hard to get most runners to buy this, but it's such a better feeling to run them hard enough and have a little left when you finish--and it works too. After you start racing faster doing it this way you will start to have confidence in it. When your race times come down, then quicken the workout pace, but not before. I guarantee you will benefit more from 6 x 800 at 3:25-3:30 with a 200 jog than you will from what you just did. Think "comfortably hard" rather getting to the point that you feel like quitting after every lap. Do a few strides on your easy days to work on turnover. .
          Agree....a 5k race is 88% aerobic and 12% anaerobic. sjutton already has the speed to run a sub 20. He just needs the endurance to run 6 consecutive 3:14 half miles with no rest in between. A 3:14 half mile is not hard at all for those of us on the verge of breaking 20....Even a mile at 6:28 is nothing special. But to string 3 of them in a row together takes endurance. Don't murder yourself in interval training. You want to save something for the races.
            I see in the post that a lot of you have 5Ks this weekend so I just wanted to drop a note of luck to all of you on reaching your goals.


            Go Pre!

              I am still stewing for missing a sub 20 by 15 seconds last weekend. I can't wait for another crack at it. I guess it could have be worse, like missing BQ by a second!
              JimR


                I am still stewing for missing a sub 20 by 15 seconds last weekend. I can't wait for another crack at it. I guess it could have be worse, like missing BQ by a second!
                15 seconds means you're getting close but there's still work to do. I wouldn't consider it something to stew over. I was able to get hill sprints in last night (10x), a workout I've had to forego until the snow moved out. Pretty consistent loops that didn't start feeling hard until the last 2. Track workouts won't start happening until next week.


                Supa Dupa Fly

                  Anyway, just curious what kind of strength training everyone is doing with their running. Everyone seems to be talking about intervals but I'd think strength training would be big part of 5k training. What kind of core workouts? Do you go to the gym and lift weights? Plyometrics? What is best for building speed?
                  I'm not sure what the best for speed is, but I hit the gym 4 lunches a week...with only one of those days focused on legs. My leg day is Thursday (after running wednesday night). I do: 4 sets of horizontal leg press (machine) 3 or 4 sets of quad extensions (machine) main set: 6 sets of leg press (free weights) 3 or 4 sets of hamstring curls (machine) 3 sets of standing calf extensions (machine) 3 sets of seated calf extensions (machine) I do heavy weights, 6 to 12 reps (some days i go heavier with 6 to 8 reps and other days a little lighter with 10 to 12 reps) I was struggling some with shin splints so i've been trying to strenthen my lower legs - hence 2 calf excercises. it may be helping amidst the other things I've been doing (streching before and after, etc.) as the shin splints have finally been going away. Unrelated to legs, I do: back/biceps on Tues; Abs on Wed; and Chest/Triceps on Friday
                  ~TC --There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't--
                    Hey Jim, where are you planning on going for a sub-20? There's a race at the airport June 21 and the Toronto Challenge at Metro Hall on June 8. The Toronto Challenge has good depth usually, so I'd suggest that.
                    JimR


                      Hey Jim, where are you planning on going for a sub-20? There's a race at the airport June 21 and the Toronto Challenge at Metro Hall on June 8. The Toronto Challenge has good depth usually, so I'd suggest that.
                      I haven't done the Toronto Challenge before. A few years ago there was some question about the course accuracy when it was the Nissan Challenge. Roadraceresults doesn't list the course as certified but a lot of uncertified courses are pretty accurate and that may have changed since. It might be the better option timing wise though cuz I want to do well at the Nightcrawler on June 18 and that might toast me for the 21st. Which airport? You mean out by Pearson or the old Downsview airport?
                        Jim/Adeel and all, Thanks for the Advice! I definitely intend to put it into practice. I will slow down those intervals and try to get more in with less recovery time. For now, I just enjoy my 5k Saturday and see what I can do. Quick question (sorry if asked earlier in thread) - Should I include both the Tempo (say 20 min) and an 800m interval workout in the same week? Or alternate? Lets just assume my goal race is later this year (Sept or later). Steve P.S. The sub 20 5k is a goal, but not THE goal if you know what I mean. I want to improve as runner in all distances and snag the sub 20 in the process Smile

                        2014 - Get 5k back under 20:00.  Stay healthy!

                          Jim/Adeel and all, Quick question (sorry if asked earlier in thread) - Should I include both the Tempo (say 20 min) and an 800m interval workout in the same week? Or alternate? Lets just assume my goal race is later this year (Sept or later). Steve
                          Two faster runs in one week is fine. If you are doing a race in the week you can probably skip the tempo run and just to the intervals 4 days before the race. Though you are only running 20-25 miles a week so you probably would get better by running more miles instead of faster miles. At 20 miles a week you probably shouldn't do more than 4 X 800 since that is 2 miles or 10% of your weekly miles. Maybe set a goal for 25 mile weeks if you can handle it...then you can try 5 X 800 intervals at 3:20 pace or so. Run 75-80% OR MORE of weekly miles slow (slower than 8:00 per mile)....I am not kidding. I run 5% of weekly miles at faster than race pace (400 meter repeats) one day...8 X 400 in 91 seconds...400 meter jog followed by complete rest before next set. I run 10% of weekly miles at tempo pace (30 seconds slower than 5k pace) ..4 mile run in 28:30 or so. I run 85% of miles at 8:00-9:30 per mile pace. Though I designate Sunday for a long run of 9 miles at 9:00 pace. I am only running the 400 meter fast stuff for 6 weeks. It is to get my running economy fine tuned for the interval work which I will soon partake in. As JimR said running faster than race pace is not really helpful or necessary except you may try a few fast strides at the end of a run (a few times a week)...go hard for 20-30 seconds just to get your wheels turning...no need to tire yourself out with these. You are not running the 100 yard dash...you are a middle-long distance runner. So I would advise 2 fast runs a week....interval and tempo preferably two days apart. Long run on Sunday....interval on Tuesday....tempo on Thursday or Friday...if you have a race on Saturday skip the tempo...the race takes the place of the tempo workout. If you were running 40 miles a week maybe you can do 3 faster workouts a week. After reading this over...maybe by the time August rolls around and you want to peak in a race you may make the tempo runs the staple of your weekly fast run. The intervals tire you out more so you may cut them out of important race weeks. I hope someone else can give advise as well as I read alot and run moderate milage but that doesnt make me an expert.
                            I'd stick with one faster workout a week until you have a bigger base. As it stands now it would make too high a percent of your total. Do a long run every week and one quality workout, alternating tempo and something else if you want. If you race make that your quality workout for the week. What happens to the long run on race weeks? Unless it's a key race I'd move it to the day that you would have done your quality workout. For shorter Saturday races I think it's ok to do the long run on Sunday. However, I would avoid doing the long run the day before a race.
                            Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
                              Guys, That makes sense with 1 speed workout, especially when you consider I still play Ultimate Frisbee about every other week which wipes me out pretty good. Those weeks would be very difficult with 2 speed days with my current mileage. I do want to get to 30 MPW but have been struggling lately with that goal. I believe I can go under 20 with that mileage and smarter training. I'll keep that in mind with the races. I'm doing a bunch of races this year to participate in the local corporate competition. (and to give me a little kick in the butt now and then to keep training) thks Steve

                              2014 - Get 5k back under 20:00.  Stay healthy!

                                I haven't done the Toronto Challenge before. A few years ago there was some question about the course accuracy when it was the Nissan Challenge. Roadraceresults doesn't list the course as certified but a lot of uncertified courses are pretty accurate and that may have changed since. It might be the better option timing wise though cuz I want to do well at the Nightcrawler on June 18 and that might toast me for the 21st. Which airport? You mean out by Pearson or the old Downsview airport?
                                I did the Toronto Challenge last year, it's accurate. I'll probably be there myself, maybe hoping for a sub-17. The airport race is on a runway at Pearson. I don't know how accurate it is. sjutton, I personally think you can handle two hard workouts without a problem, but that's just me.