On Wisconsin! (Read 2074 times)

    90-95% percent of issues/failures you think are related to your people are really related to the processes that are set up for you people to follow. 

     

    Beautifully put. People are institutional creatures.

      Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.

      DoppleBock


        From this read - I would agree do not make teachers pay more to pension - just covert it away from a defined benefit plan.

         

        But we still have the root cause not solved

         

        *  Students are falling down

        *  Cost of education per student has doubled over the last 10 years

         

        Until these 2 issues are solved I do not believe the pressure on the Nations Teachers will go away

        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

         

          Blaming teachers for the failure of the schools is like blaming the guys who work on oil rigs for the gulf oil spill.

            Besides that, the Bill will affect more then just the teachers, but I guess its easier to feel compassion for a teacher then it is a custodian or maintence worker.

             

            The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

             

            2014 Goals:

             

            Stay healthy

            Enjoy life

             

            DoppleBock


              Jeff

               

              Another lean principal - Any solution for problem statement #1 - Students are falling down - That does not come from the teachers with in the constraints of problem statement #2 will fail.  "The best solution always comes from those doing the work"

               

              The fact that students are falling down does lead to the public assigning less value to teachers.  If does not matter if they are not part of the problem - Both for students and themselves they need to be part of the solution.

              http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

              2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

               

                Jeff

                 

                Another lean principal - Any solution for problem statement #1 - Students are falling down - That does not come from the teachers with in the constraints of problem statement #2 will fail.  "The best solution always comes from those doing the work"

                 

                The fact that students are falling down does lead to the public assigning less value to teachers.  If does not matter if they are not part of the problem - Both for students and themselves they need to be part of the solution.

                 

                I agree, and it is clear that teacher's unions are part of the problem, as they are one of the huge institutional structures involved. The best solution always comes from those doing the work. The problem with teacher's unions is not the fact that they are a union, but that the interests of the union have become divorced from the interests of teachers qua teachers. (The interests are now more in line with the interests of teachers qua paycheck earners.)

                 

                My speculative guess from my relatively short career as an educator is that those doing the work would tell you that financial priority should be put on smaller class sizes (not reducing teacher workload, but maximizing its effectiveness) and changing the rules of pay so that learning (and good teaching) is rewarded instead of longevity. They will also tell you that for the most part good teachers are born, not made, so careful attention must be paid to recruiting and retention of successful teachers.

                  I agree, and it is clear that teacher's unions are part of the problem, as they are one of the huge institutional structures involved. The best solution always comes from those doing the work.

                   

                  Agree...though it all starts with the first institution kids are born into...the family.   When this institution is in disrepair, it is an uphill battle for teachers, the state, the church and all other institutions.  Small class sizes are good ideas, but ultimately they are all band-aids.

                   

                  We home-school, and we're successful.  But I'm not sure it's due to good curriculum, having the best teacher on the planet, or smallest class sizeSmile, though these things surely help.  My wife focused on developing our baby's mind from pregnancy (eating perfectly, drug-free birth, etc) and began reading to her on the day we brought her home - and many other simple things (more puzzles, less screen-time, etc).  Love of learning is a fire that is best lit in that first institution.

                  2014 - Get 5k back under 20:00.  Stay healthy!

                    sometimes the union is spending effort having the back of the teacher who simply isn't very good at the job.  it's something unions do.  but the school has little ability to improve it's teaching by removing teachers who are not very effective.  so they sometimes get stuck with lifers who would probably not get a job somewhere else.  it's good for that particular teacher.  and not very good for the hunudreds of other people affected over the years. 

                    In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

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                      Agree...though it all starts with the first institution kids are born into...the family.   When this institution is in disrepair, it is an uphill battle for teachers, the state, the church and all other institutions.  Small class sizes are good ideas, but ultimately they are all band-aids.

                       

                      We home-school, and we're successful.  But I'm not sure it's due to good curriculum, having the best teacher on the planet, or smallest class sizeSmile, though these things surely help.  My wife focused on developing our baby's mind from pregnancy (eating perfectly, drug-free birth, etc) and began reading to her on the day we brought her home - and many other simple things (more puzzles, less screen-time, etc).  Love of learning is a fire that is best lit in that first institution.

                       

                      Okay--good point. This point is often made, but I'm not exactly sure how it is relevant. How do we create good families? Dont the schools play a role in this? 

                        sometimes the union is spending effort having the back of the teacher who simply isn't very good at the job.  it's something unions do.  but the school has little ability to improve it's teaching by removing teachers who are not very effective.  so they sometimes get stuck with lifers who would probably not get a job somewhere else.  it's good for that particular teacher.  and not very good for the hunudreds of other people affected over the years. 

                         

                        Isn't this true of every institution? There are always free riders. 

                          Isn't this true of every institution? There are always free riders. 

                           

                          In non-union situations isn't it easier to fire the free rider?

                           

                            In non-union situations it's also easier to promote based on performance versus seniority, and to make adjustments to benefits packages in order to react to economic realities and avoid laying off the 2% of people who were most recently hired.

                             

                            I don't agree that students in general are falling down and I don't know that any of that really can be pinned on teachers or unions (as much as I'd like to pin just about anything on unions.)  The schools that do well have better students, not better teachers, generally speaking.

                            Runners run.


                            Prince of Fatness

                              In non-union situations isn't it easier to fire the free rider?

                               

                              I think so.  The union rules do help prevent age discrimination, which is real.  The problem with the non-union situation is that then you find that people are let go on cost alone, without taking into consideration the value that they provide.  This is easier for the bean counters because it solves short term budget issues.  They'll worry about the intangible costs of losing the value of the person lost later.  They don't even have to (or can't for that matter) measure it.

                               

                              The ideal situation is for employers to take value into consideration when making hiring / firing employees, but that depends on people thinking more in the long term, which is not where we are as a society today.

                              Semi-retired.

                                The ideal situation is for employers to take value into consideration when making hiring / firing employees, but that depends on people thinking more in the long term, which is not where we are as a society today.

                                 

                                I would argue that this happens all the time in well run organizations.  Having just lived through two years of atrocious layoffs at my own work place, I would also argue that since these decisions are generally made by human being and human beings are imperfect that it's not always clear cut.

                                Runners run.