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50k during marathon training? (Read 143 times)


Mmmmm...beer

    So how bad of an idea would it be to run a 50k trail race during week 6 of a Pfitzinger 18/70 plan?

     

    I'd run it as an easy long run, without a time goal, just enjoy the trails.  I have no doubts about being able to handle the distance, but some about how it will affect my training afterwards and my marathon performance in March, goal is to BQ (3:15).

     

    Interestingly enough, that's a recovery week in the Pfitz plan.  Let's say I decide to do the 50k, how would you adjust week 6 or even week 7 to allow for the race?  The 50k is on Dec 21st.

     

     

    <colgroup><col width="192" /><col width="54" /><col width="61" /><col width="308" /></colgroup>
    WEEK 6 - 12 WEEKS TO GOAL (RECOVERY)  
    Monday 16-Dec   Rest or cross training
    Tuesday 17-Dec   General aerobic + speed 8M w/ 10x100m strides
    Wednesday 18-Dec   Medium-long run 12M
    Thursday 19-Dec   Recovery 5M
    Friday 20-Dec   General aerobic 10M
    Saturday 21-Dec   Recovery 5M
    Sunday 22-Dec   Medium long run 15M
    Weekly total     Projected - 55

     

    <colgroup><col width="192" /><col width="54" /><col width="61" /><col width="308" /></colgroup>
    WEEK 7 - 11 WEEKS TO GOAL      
    Monday 23-Dec   Rest or cross training
    Tuesday 24-Dec   Lactate threshold 10M w/5M @ HM pace
    Wednesday 25-Dec   Medium-long run 14M
    Thursday 26-Dec   Recovery 5M
    Friday 27-Dec   Medium-long run 11M
    Saturday 28-Dec   General aerobic + speed 7M w/ 10x100m strides
    Sunday 29-Dec   Long run 21M
    Weekly total     Projected - 68

    -Dave

     

    2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M


    Mmmmm...beer

      I went ahead and sent in my registration, so now the only question is how to adjust the Pfitz plan for the 50k.  I'm thinking of reducing the MLRs on week 6, keeping the speed work, and then seeing how I feel the week after, maybe turning the LT run into a GA run if I'm not feeling it.

      -Dave

       

      2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M

        If you are pretty confident that you can get away without getting injured (during or in recovery), why not?   Looks like you got a decent base, hopefully no nagging injuries. I would plan a little more recovery if you run it anything but super easy.

         

        I did a trail marathon in January, week one of Pfitz 18/70, but it was a 4 loop course and I took serious breaks each loop (like full stop for 3-5 min, eat food, drink lots, etc), and it didnt set me back any more than a hard long run.

         

        Only other thought is that I dont see any marathons in your race history...would this be your first race over 2-3hrs?

        TripleBock


          Personally - I would switch Tuesday Week 7 and Tuesday week 6 - Because you are not going to be in any mood to run fast after the 50k.  I would also make Week 6 - Friday an easy / shorter run or take the day off.  When running the 50k, I would run it at an effort level that gets you to the finish thinking "Wow that was only 95% effort" ~ knowing you could have done it faster.

           

          So how bad of an idea would it be to run a 50k trail race during week 6 of a Pfitzinger 18/70 plan?

           

          I'd run it as an easy long run, without a time goal, just enjoy the trails.  I have no doubts about being able to handle the distance, but some about how it will affect my training afterwards and my marathon performance in March, goal is to BQ (3:15).

           

          Interestingly enough, that's a recovery week in the Pfitz plan.  Let's say I decide to do the 50k, how would you adjust week 6 or even week 7 to allow for the race?  The 50k is on Dec 21st.

           

           

          WEEK 6 - 12 WEEKS TO GOAL (RECOVERY)  
          Monday 16-Dec   Rest or cross training
          Tuesday 17-Dec   General aerobic + speed 8M w/ 10x100m strides
          Wednesday 18-Dec   Medium-long run 12M
          Thursday 19-Dec   Recovery 5M
          Friday 20-Dec   General aerobic 10M
          Saturday 21-Dec   Recovery 5M
          Sunday 22-Dec   Medium long run 15M
          Weekly total     Projected - 55

           

          WEEK 7 - 11 WEEKS TO GOAL      
          Monday 23-Dec   Rest or cross training
          Tuesday 24-Dec   Lactate threshold 10M w/5M @ HM pace
          Wednesday 25-Dec   Medium-long run 14M
          Thursday 26-Dec   Recovery 5M
          Friday 27-Dec   Medium-long run 11M
          Saturday 28-Dec   General aerobic + speed 7M w/ 10x100m strides
          Sunday 29-Dec   Long run 21M
          Weekly total     Projected - 68

          I am fuller bodied than Dopplebock

            If you have never run a 50k before it will most likely impact your speed training the next week as your legs may need some recovery time.  So you have to decide if hitting all of your speed training is more important or doing a 50k run is.

             

            Usually when I am training for a 50 mile race the first 50k run of the year hurts more than a 20 mile long run and recovery is slower than a normal long run.  After a couple 50ks though recovery is much better and can usually hit the speed training as planned.  If it were my goal marathon I would skip the 50k.

             

            MTA: triplebock's plan would work too.

            TripleBock


              What I have found is racing long races leading up to a marathon is disruptive to my marathon training.  If I really care 100% about the marathon then I should devise a marathon training plan that does not include races 50k and longer.  Of course, If you are fine with it impacting the marathon ~ Then ultra trail races are a lot of fun.

               

              But I think that is true about running to many marathons or too many ultras - IMHO you will underperform.  2012 - I did a lot of races 3x24 hour race, 4 marathons, 3 50ks, 1 50 mile and 1 6 hour trail (42 miles) and all of the preformances were less than if I had raced less.  But it was a lot of fun.

               

              Some people can do it, apparently I can not.

              I am fuller bodied than Dopplebock


              Mmmmm...beer

                If you are pretty confident that you can get away without getting injured (during or in recovery), why not?   Looks like you got a decent base, hopefully no nagging injuries. I would plan a little more recovery if you run it anything but super easy.

                 

                I did a trail marathon in January, week one of Pfitz 18/70, but it was a 4 loop course and I took serious breaks each loop (like full stop for 3-5 min, eat food, drink lots, etc), and it didnt set me back any more than a hard long run.

                 

                Only other thought is that I dont see any marathons in your race history...would this be your first race over 2-3hrs?

                 

                I think I can, if I don't run it too hard.  I don't have an "official" marathon under my belt, but I did a 3.5 hour 26.25 mile long run last Dec and then PR'd a 5k and 10k just a few weeks later.  I tend to recover fairly quickly.

                -Dave

                 

                2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M


                Mmmmm...beer

                  Personally - I would switch Tuesday Week 7 and Tuesday week 6 - Because you are not going to be in any mood to run fast after the 50k.  I would also make Week 6 - Friday an easy / shorter run or take the day off.  When running the 50k, I would run it at an effort level that gets you to the finish thinking "Wow that was only 95% effort" ~ knowing you could have done it faster.

                   

                   

                  Thanks, that makes sense, I was thinking that speed might be a little difficult the week after.

                  -Dave

                   

                  2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M


                  Mmmmm...beer

                    If you have never run a 50k before it will most likely impact your speed training the next week as your legs may need some recovery time.  So you have to decide if hitting all of your speed training is more important or doing a 50k run is.

                     

                    Usually when I am training for a 50 mile race the first 50k run of the year hurts more than a 20 mile long run and recovery is slower than a normal long run.  After a couple 50ks though recovery is much better and can usually hit the speed training as planned.  If it were my goal marathon I would skip the 50k.

                     

                    MTA: triplebock's plan would work too.

                     

                    This will be my first one, and my first race/run over 26 miles.  I think I'm gonna go with triplebock's plan, hold back some and then hopefully be able to get back on track with the marathon training quickly.

                    -Dave

                     

                    2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M

                    Jeff F


                    Free Beer

                      What I have found is racing long races leading up to a marathon is disruptive to my marathon training.  If I really care 100% about the marathon then I should devise a marathon training plan that does not include races 50k and longer.  Of course, If you are fine with it impacting the marathon ~ Then ultra trail races are a lot of fun.

                       

                      But I think that is true about running to many marathons or too many ultras - IMHO you will underperform.  2012 - I did a lot of races 3x24 hour race, 4 marathons, 3 50ks, 1 50 mile and 1 6 hour trail (42 miles) and all of the preformances were less than if I had raced less.  But it was a lot of fun.

                       

                      Some people can do it, apparently I can not.

                       

                      This is the message you should pay attention to...


                      Closed for repairs

                         

                        2012 - I did a lot of races 3x24 hour race, 4 marathons, 3 50ks, 1 50 mile and 1 6 hour trail (42 miles) and all of the preformances were less than if I had raced less.  But it was a lot of fun. 

                         

                         

                        Beer mile is conspicuously missing.

                         


                        Will run for scenery.

                          One other thing : how much running do you do on trails ?

                           

                          In general trail running is easier on your body (apart from falls!) but it puts quite different demands on your body.  If you do mostly paved runs you'll probably get a few new muscle aches.

                           

                          Another risk : you might like it so much you'll sign up for another one. Big grin

                          Stupid feet!

                          Stupid elbow!


                          Mmmmm...beer

                            One other thing : how much running do you do on trails ?

                             

                            In general trail running is easier on your body (apart from falls!) but it puts quite different demands on your body.  If you do mostly paved runs you'll probably get a few new muscle aches.

                             

                            Another risk : you might like it so much you'll sign up for another one. Big grin

                             

                            At least once a week, sometimes more.  I've done lots of 10-15 milers on trails without any problems.  My long runs lately have been half trail, half pavement (pavement leading to/from the trail), and the trail portion is actually part of the trail system where the 50k is going to be held.  I plan to increase that ratio now that I know I'll be running the 50k.  I also want to get more familiar with the side trails where the race will be held, they're a little more technical from what I'm told, while the main trail, which is the part that I've run on, is flat hardpack.

                            -Dave

                             

                            2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k | sub-1:25 HM | BQ done! | sub-3 M