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Lactate threshold... ??? (Read 1064 times)

    Ok so I am thinking about my running and I am convinced my week link at the moment (at least in terms of training for a 5k) is my lactate threshold. Coming off marathon training my endurance is there. So how to improve lactate threshold. So I am thinking 1 tempo run a week at a weekly milage of about 40 miles would put me at about a limit of a 4 mile tempo run. (lesser of 10% weekly milage or 60 minutes). So how will one tempo run really benifit me any time soon... So I did some more reading online and came up with this gem... that willamona would just love... http://www.ehow.com/how_2096891_improve-lactate-threshold.html
    1.) Increase your overall exercise volume before trying workouts designed to target your lactate threshold, especially if you're new to working out.
    So I am thinking perhaps the tempo run is as much about pushing the muscles a bit as much as it is about LT. I would be perhaps better off continuing to build base to 60 miles a week again? OK... one other thing I was thinking about.... If I want to really work on Lactate threshold and say get in an extra LT workout in the week could I do so by making my cross training day a Lactate threshold workout on the bike... does it translate? And could I transition into VO max workouts in running in the fall and continue the LT work on the bike? Reaping the benifits but not thrashing my legs? Oh this is assuming LT work on the bike doesn't tear me up... I guess this would be a good question for triathletes. Does increase LT in running translate to swimming? or biking... or vice versa... does say LT training in swimming help LT in running?... etc etc...
    jEfFgObLuE


    I've got a fever...

      Ok so I am thinking about my running and I am convinced my week link at the moment (at least in terms of training for a 5k) is my lactate threshold. Coming off marathon training my endurance is there.
      Why do you think this is your weak link? Okay, if do tempo runs to actually benefit your LT here's something to consider: A traditional tempo run is a 20 minute run at your LT. In well trained athletes, this corresponds to 88-92% of max HR. LT pace is about 10~15 sec/mile slower than your 10k pace. If you run tempo runs longer than 20 minutes, you inevitably have to slow down. But the slower you run, the further below LT you are. A long tempo run in the 40~60 minute range is probably great for general endurance, but really doesn't do much for LT. You could do tempo intervals. These are work intervals at LT pace, with short (60s) recoveries. Daniels is big into these (calls them "cruise intervals"). An example would be 6x5 min at threhold pace, with 1 min recovery. The recoveries allow you to do more work at LT and are short enough that you stay at or near LT for the duration of the workout.

      On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

        First of all, never assume your endurance is there. You're barely scratching the surface of developing your aerobic base so you will definitely get more bang for your buck in terms of endurance AND LT from just running more. But a tempo run from time to time can be a very good thing. And tempo intervals or cruise intervals are good too. But really you can make it even simpler than that for a while--just trhow in 8 x 2 minutes "comfortably hard" with 1 minute easy into a medium long run. You don't even need to worry about pace. Running LT is specific to running. That's not to say cross training can't help you but it's not a substitute for running. Tempo runs don't trash your legs if you do them right.

        Runners run

        jEfFgObLuE


        I've got a fever...

          Running LT is specific to running. That's not to say cross training can't help you but it's not a substitute for running. Tempo runs don't trash your legs if you do them right.
          Good point. LT training on a bike really has little meaning for running LT. (I would argue that riding a bike has little meaning to a runner. Tongue )

          On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.


          The Greatest of All Time

            From a more basic standpoint, you can improve or raise LT by training at current LT. I recommend you buy Daniels Running Formula if you're starting to get serious about this stuff. What Globule wrote was right out of that book. And what Mikey said was correct in that true tempo runs shouldn't trash your legs. When done correctly they are not as stressful (overall) as a long run or intervals faster than 5k pace, obviously. IMO most people run tempo runs too slow and just call any running faster than their relaxed pace a tempo run. That ain't gonna get it. Just cause you pour syrup on it, don't make it a pancake.
            all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

            Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.
              I have the book sitting right next to me. and have been reading it...
              Why do you think this is your week link?
              OK good question... stupid answer. Because I haven't worked on it.... and I figure that if I am trained well enough to run a marathon and definitly trained well enough to run hard for 1/2 a marathon... runing a 5k well it wouldn't be the distance that would get me... it would be my Lactate threshold that would be my limiting factor... of course I could be wrong it could be VO2 max... OK... mikey is probably right... so then folks if you were me and wanted to see what I could pull off for the following 2 races what kind of training would you advocate... July 4rth 5k Aug 25 5k with the 25th being the race I want to peak for. I was going to add a tempo run 1x a week starting next week provided this week of running goes as planned and I feel fresh coming out the weekend...
              IMO most people run tempo runs too slow and just call any running faster than their relaxed pace a tempo run.
              agree... I changed the name of those runs in my log to "Easy... Not" I think I might change them to "pain no gain" runs... hmm... as for tempo not thrashing my legs... I'll have to see... I guess 3 miles at my tempo pace 7:55 ... with a 1 mile warmup and 1 mile warm down... should be a bit harder than an easy run but shouldn't take me more than one easy day to recover from...
                what kind of training would you advocate...
                I feel the answer coming ... "RUN MORE"
                  Well yeah, run more. But trying to peak for a 5K in 12 weeks is a different problem than trying to work on your main weekness. You said you have a copy of Daniels sitting there. First thing to do is finish reading it. Doesn't he have like a 12 week 5k/10k program in there or something? Anyhow between now and August 25th you have time to go through a base building (run more), strengthening (run tempos and stuff), and sharpening (intervals at race pace and stuff) phase. But the one that will help you the most is the run more part.

                  Runners run


                  The Greatest of All Time

                    I feel the answer coming ... "RUN MORE"
                    Well that, of course. Big grin Doesn't Daniels have training plans for shorter stuff in the back of that book? I don't have it here at work and have been injured so too pissed off to read it lately. Use your recent marathon time to establish your current VDOT. That gives you training paces and just go from there. You're going to get much faster simply from running more miles over your first few years of running. You can use Daniels as an idea source for workouts, etc or you can adopt one of his plans in full. Or you can just keep it really simple. Run as many days a week as you can. One run should be longer than the others, and one should be much faster than the others. Simple. Playing around with the fast day is where all of the fun comes in. But if you follow Daniels you will find yourself doing true tempo runs and faster intervals, likely at a track. He also likes the much faster 200 and 400's and you may do those, but at his paces they beat you up pretty bad so tread lightly.
                    all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

                    Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.
                    Mr R


                      Don't sweat the Daniels' LT pace stuff. Tempos existed long before he started talking about 20 minute LT runs. What most people miss, is that the Daniels' conversions are ideal. You base your pace off of a PR, when you were in great shape, in perfect weather, and you're tapered. But if you're in average shape, running on dirt, in the heat, your LT pace is much slower. This is why most of the time, your actual LT pace is slower than the tables would suggest. Just run comfortably hard. If you can run a marathon, you're plenty ready for LT training. I don't think you get anywhere by running nothing but easy miles. If you mix in strides and tempos, your progress will be much faster. Furthermore, LT training has a cumulative effect, unlike VO2max training (with the exception being VO2max gains that come from weight loss).

                      What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

                      Carps10


                        I'm training for 5ks in the fall. First off, the base miles are key. You want running 3 miles to become an incredibly easy task to you. Tempos will teach your body to clear waste out of the muscles, and also to run fast and relaxed. Try to do a tempo workout a week. Something like 4 mile repeats at LT with 2 minutes rest between each rep...OR 4 miles at a slower tempo pace. Also, each week I tack on some 200m sprints after my run. This is a good way to build strength, but unlike a longer repeat(an 800 or a mile or something), it's not gonna tire you out or anything.
                          What most people miss, is that the Daniels' conversions are ideal. ...This is why most of the time, your actual LT pace is slower than the tables would suggest.
                          Thank you for pointing that out
                          Furthermore, LT training has a cumulative effect, unlike VO2max training (with the exception being VO2max gains that come from weight loss).
                          can you explain what you mean by cumulative effect... and how VO2max training is not cumulative?
                          Trent


                          Good Bad & The Monkey

                            Define: Lactate Threshold.
                            Tyler S


                              "the anaerobic threshold is the point where lactate (lactic acid) begins to accumulate in the bloodstream. This happens when it is produced faster than it can be metabolized." yay wikipedia
                              Trent


                              Good Bad & The Monkey

                                Wikipedia. Truth by consensus. Rather than truth by truth. AKA "Wikiality". What evidence have ye that LT actually exists? Be careful... There are two major competing theories. One is the theory of the lactate threshold. One is the theory of the central governor. Here is a sometimes incredible (and incredibly long) thread on the topic. (Some of the thread is awful too) Tim Noakes, one of the world's leading physiologists in this field, and the person behind the central governor theory, actually chimes in. This is a fascinating read. The Lactate threshold theory holds that your lactate levels and oxygen debt build up to the point that your body fails and you can run no further. The central governor theory holds that your brain has a control mechanism which shuts your body down when it senses that you are generating too much heat and other by-products of muscle use. Which is right? Who knows. There are some cogent arguments on both sides. Where there are arguments, typically, there is still research to be done.
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