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New runner, training for 1/2 Marathon (Read 1803 times)


...and again...and again

posted: 1/7/2009 at 4:06 PM
Quote from Trent on 1/7/2009 at 3:36 PM:
Running hills is running.


and what would YOU know about runnin' hills?
Hit Bull, Win Steak!
posted: 1/7/2009 at 4:28 PM
modified: 1/7/2009 at 4:33 PM
Quote from Jeff on 1/7/2009 at 3:58 PM:
Your point was that the complexity of running scares off runners. My point is that it shouldn't because running is not complex, no matter what the internet know it alls with their jargon and psuedo-science want you to think.


I thought the discussion was why newer runners gravitate toward the longer events. Anecdotal evidence was that newer runners felt that running faster over shorter distances versus 'just finishing' required a more varied training (and more complex) program.

Again anecdotally, the folks I know who do gravitate toward the 'event' races do relatively high mileage to the exclusion of a more balanced approach, because "getting the miles in", usually all at the same pace, is an attractive and simple mantra, while deciding the scope of stretch and strengthening programs seems complex and is usually avoided. Once a casual runner is doing 30 + mpw I think it's time to ensure that other aspects of their training are given proper attention.

I've also seen it widely in the high school programs where teenagers are immersed in relatively high mileage programs with insufficient emphasis on strengthening and stretching. Coaches of Spring sports such as soccer and lacrosse discourage their best athletes (who could perform very well over 5k and would benefit from the aerobic training) from running cross country in the Fall because the emphasis is too much on mileage to the detriment of speed, strength and flexibility.

The result of mileage without any core strength, stretching and flexibility work is often injury.

I think we've hijacked this thread long enough. Big grin
posted: 1/7/2009 at 4:44 PM
Quote from MrH on 1/7/2009 at 4:28 PM:
I thought the discussion was why newer runners gravitate toward the longer events. Anecdotal evidence was that newer runners felt that running faster over shorter distances versus 'just finishing' required a more varied training (and more complex) program.


I thought the consensus was that shorter distances don't give enough feeling of accomplishment to new runners and that not enough people are impressed by 5ks.

I agree with Jeff that running is not complex. Certainly, if one feels compelled to follow a "program," though, there are just as many unnecessary bells, whistles, mathematical maelstroms, and gadget dependencies in a marathon program as in a 5k program.


have you seen this hat?

posted: 1/7/2009 at 4:48 PM
modified: 1/7/2009 at 4:50 PM
Quote from MrH on 1/7/2009 at 4:28 PM:

Again anecdotally, the folks I know who do gravitate toward the 'event' races do relatively high mileage to the exclusion of a more balanced approach, because "getting the miles in", usually all at the same pace, is an attractive and simple mantra, while deciding the scope of stretch and strengthening programs seems complex and is usually avoided. Once a casual runner is doing 30 + mpw I think it's time to ensure that other aspects of their training are given proper attention.

I would suggest strongly that optimal marathon or half marathon training varies very little from optimal 5k training. I really think the reason most people gravitate to the marathon has to do with it seeming like a more significant goal. I know that was and still is to some extent true for me.


I've also seen it widely in the high school programs where teenagers are immersed in relatively high mileage programs with insufficient emphasis on strengthening and stretching. Coaches of Spring sports such as soccer and lacrosse discourage their best athletes (who could perform very well over 5k and would benefit from the aerobic training) from running cross country in the Fall because the emphasis is too much on mileage to the detriment of speed, strength and flexibility.

It's interesting because I've noticed the exact opposite: too little emphasis on aerobic development and too much on speed/strenth. I've seen this both first hand (as an athlete) and second hand. But I'm sure both cases exist.

I think we've hijacked this thread long enough. Big grin

Hijack? No, this is a good, healthy discussion.
C-R


Aaack!

posted: 1/7/2009 at 5:47 PM
Quote from TanyaS on 1/7/2009 at 4:44 PM:
I thought the consensus was that shorter distances don't give enough feeling of accomplishment to new runners and that not enough people are impressed by 5ks.


You got me thinking on this. Do you think people are running marathons instead of 5ks becasue of others opinions of them? For real. Who runs to have other people be impressed by what you do (excluding elites ro someone trying to earn a scholarship)? I haven't noticed any "why did you start running" tabs mention this. Most of them are for fitness or competition or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I am very impressed by some of the times and miles others around here post but I don't think they are doing this to impress me. I know that's not why I run.

"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Life is tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid." - John Whayne New quote needed. Purdey found the secret

Running to Beat Cancer
Jeff


fu don't kung think

posted: 1/7/2009 at 6:21 PM
Sorry, Richard, it's taken me so long to get back to the thread. Was out slogging through (another) 12 miler.

I came out of a high school program where the weekly mileage maxed out at 35 mpw. We did a lot of high intensity stuff and also weights, drills, etc. This was in the mid-90's. I ran decent that way and certainly learned some mental toughness. 4:29 mile, 15:30 for three miles XC, 1:58 800. Nothing special, but not bad.

The summer before my freshman year in college I did nothing but run 10 miles a day, steady. Every day. 70mpw for three months in the Tennessee heat. My first college cross-country race I ran in 25:45--essentailly my three mile PR pace for 5 miles. No plyometrics, drills, weights, or frills. If I'd figured that out a year earlier, maybe I would've won my State XC title.

In college I ran much faster, and we did a lot less intensity. A lot more tempos. A lot more mileage. I still pushed too hard on easy days and have some regrets. Now, with the intelligence of hindsight, I wish I'd understood the value of easy, steady running, relentless consistency. But hey, live and learn. I still got some running ahead of me.

Anecdotal evidence, perhaps. But I've lived it.
posted: 1/7/2009 at 6:30 PM
Quote from C-R on 1/7/2009 at 5:47 PM:
You got me thinking on this. Do you think people are running marathons instead of 5ks becasue of others opinions of them? .


Sometimes...

Quote from slosh252 on 1/6/2009 at 9:06 PM:
If you are new to running and you tell your friends, I ran a 5K in 28 minutes, they might say, cool, thats nice. If you told them, I ran a 5K in 18 minutes, you would probably get the same response. Few people understand the difference between what is required to run 18 vs 28 minutes for a 5K. On the other hand, if you told your friends, I ran a marathon, you would get a much more impressed response.


Obviously, (hopefully) that's not the main reason people run marathons. But I think a lot of people do a LOT of what they do to impress others. And, of course, no one would write "To impress people" under "Why I Run" any more than someone would answer the question, "Why do you have such a ridiculously overblown SUV?" with, "Because I have such a..."

Well, nevermind.
Scout7


CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 1/7/2009 at 6:37 PM
Running a marathon is not exactly healthy. Running one possibly less so. If you're running for health reasons, then shouldn't enter races, unless it for some sort of charitable reason.
posted: 1/7/2009 at 7:29 PM
Jeff,

I understand your perspective and it's certainly not unique (and probably the prevalent one Smile ), but in my experience some people respond much better to higher mileage than others.

I think the big caveat and where we'd agree, is training at the right level of intensity, irrespective of the level of mileage. Strangely enough this is sometimes hardest to do in a team setting where team members push each other in training. And it's also hard for newer runners on their own who think every run should be exhausting - no pain no gain, right ?

Too often I see teenagers (and other beginners) pushed into high mileage and the end result is injury. Some survive and run good times, but too many have no season because their body breaks down. It probably is difficult to win a state distance running title off a moderate amount of mileage, but that's a worthwhile trade-off for most of the participants in the program if they can avoid injury.

A good friend ran in a Division 1 school on a track scholarship for her 800m/1500m. She would have been one of the faster runners on their cross country team but because the coach required her to run a minimum of 70 mpw and she was unable to do this consistently without getting injured, she didn't run cross country for them. Today as a 40 something mom when she runs a social 5k she finishes in sub 19 off a total off 25 mpw, even though her training is for shorter track distances.

A few years ago I read 'Running with the Buffaloes' - the story of the University of Colorado cross country team which included Adam Goucher (who did win a national individual title). The team was plagued by season-ending injuries because of the combination of high intensity and high mileage they followed. Some called the book inspirational, it read more as a horror story to me. Smile
posted: 1/7/2009 at 7:57 PM
I was going to post my comment a bit earlier but it disappeared into a cyber space and I thought, well, what the heck, might as well… I THINK this whole argument started after Mikey posted his comment about “racing” vs “just finishing”??? I don’t know the guy other than he lives somewhere around Boston area and I believe we exchanged a comment or two about Coach Squires??? He seems like a very nice guy; always straight forward and, at times, blunt which might come out wrongly to some people but I always like his comments. And, whether I like to admit it or not, I guess I’m in his generation and couldn’t agree with him more.

That young lady who took Mikey’s comment as “resentment toward slower ‘runners’”, I’m sorry, but it seems to me you are the one, along with some (quite a few, as a matter of fact) others as far as I’m concerned, who has a huge chip on your shoulder. Just the fact that you’re afraid you might finish last in some local race shows that YOU are the one who have a complex toward being slow. What’s wrong with finishing last? At least you’re out there, trying! That’s the whole argument, isn’t it? Or is it about not trying to run fast? It sounded to me that you have resentment toward those who try to go faster.

I love 5k. Running a marathon, for the sake of saying I’ve “run one” doesn’t give me much kick any more. I was out slogging in the dark in the snow this morning in sub-zero condition (F, that is) because I missed my goal for 5k by about 15 seconds, not minutes by the way, last year. I haven’t missed a day since last June and I run doubles most of days (well, trying to at least…). Those who try to improve 10 seconds for their 5k work just as hard, if not more, than those who are starting out to get up to 10 miles. I’ve been running over 35 years now (sigh…) and I know a lot of elite athletes around the world. Most of them are very down to earth because they know ALL of us work just as hard. I have a great picture, one of my favorite pictures, of Frank Shorter after he won Fukuoka marathon for the fourth time, sitting with an old Japanese guy who finished it in around 3 hours. Shorter had said way back something in the line of: “We all did it! We all suffered just as much…!” Those who really try hard and suffer have the understanding of others who do just the same REGARDLESS of the end result. I always get teary eyes, watching some not-so-skinny old lady finishing a marathon in 7 hours… Her sweat, and mixture of joy and agony in her face, show everything because I’ve been there. It’s not a matter of how fast or slow you might run; but frustration comes, I think, KNOWING that a lot of people don’t even try as hard. Some complain they don’t have time and “run” 3 times a week and think they can “run” a marathon in a reasonable time. Unfortunately, quite a few actually do.

Many people don’t give a damn about improving their performance and that’s perfectly fine. But just the fact, by glancing at this thread, I’ve found 4 or 5 people, including the original poster, saying, right from the get-go, that they “can’t run fast” or “running fast scares me”. If this is not setting out a low standard for yourself, I don’t know what is. Most people go through their lives, NEVER realizing their full potential because they NEVER apply themselves to excel. These people are destined to be ordinary. That’s fine—that is why it’s called “ordinary”! Setting out to run 10 miles, or a half marathon, or a full marathon, or running a 5k fast…those alone are already an extraordinary feat. If I remember it correctly (someone with correct statistics???), only 3% of entire population (of the US, I believe) finish a marathon. Even just running, I’ll bet probably somewhere around 10% actually engage running as a regular activity. Don’t ever settle for some low standard. You’ve already taken that all-important first step—to get out and start running. Don’t sell yourself short. You CAN do better. Some may call me an elitist S.O.B. but, oh, well, what can I do…?

I guess for those of us in the old school, like Mikey or myself, what frustrates us is the fact so many people just casually jump into running a marathon and, with 2 or 3 months of “training”, they settle for “finishing” it in somewhere around 5 hours and think they’ve conquered Mt. Everest… Mt. Everest stands as Mt. Everest because it is not easy to conquer. If everybody is climbing it, it wouldn’t have any special meaning to it. Unfortunately, it almost seems marathoning is becoming like that. Is it a good thing? I wouldn’t deny it and I wouldn’t discourage anybody from doing it because, in any way it may turn out to be, it IS a healthy endeavor.

In closing, because we are so far off the original topic already… There’s this old lady in our neighborhood who walks all the time. You see her walking all the time, everywhere. I call her, jokingly, Mrs. Walker! ;o) I sometimes walk an hour with her. From the way she walks, I think she’s had some physical issue, like s stroke or something—she sort of wobbles side to side. But she’s walking all the time, rains or shines. In other words, she’s winning.

So, Mikey, is this anywhere close to what you are thinking at all? Hey, I’ll be coming to Boston this April. Maybe we can catch up???
posted: 1/7/2009 at 8:11 PM
".. only 3% of entire population (of the US, I believe) finish a marathon. Even just running, I’ll bet probably somewhere around 10% actually engage running as a regular activity. Don’t ever settle for some low standard. You’ve already taken that all-important first step—to get out and start running. Don’t sell yourself short. You CAN do better. Some may call me an elitist S.O.B. but, oh, well, what can I do…?

I guess for those of us in the old school, like Mikey or myself, what frustrates us is the fact so many people just casually jump into running a marathon and, with 2 or 3 months of “training”, they settle for “finishing” it in somewhere around 5 hours and think they’ve conquered Mt. Everest… Mt. Everest stands as Mt. Everest because it is not easy to conquer. If everybody is climbing it, it wouldn’t have any special meaning to it...."

Hey!
shop.cafepress.com/dornbusch
"There was madness in any direction, at any hour. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning." - Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas


old school badger

posted: 1/7/2009 at 8:15 PM
I may have missed a lot but I think there is a big difference between a "goal race" of a half marathon and a marathon. I've run 10 miles at a time. I'm pretty sure I could run 13 if I really wanted to. But I'm also pretty sure I'd get injured trying to run a marathon. That's a lot of abuse for the average human that has not spent years training the body to deal with. Unless you are 19 years old or are an exceptional case you just can't go from 10 miles a week to 60 miles a week in one year without risk.

I also cringe when I see people say they want to run a marathon this year because they turn 40. Heck I'm turning 40 and I've been running for over a year now and I'm not crazy enough to attempt that. But a half marathon... well that's possible without killing yourself in the process.
2010 goal = 4:59 for 1,500 meters.


monkey groovy

posted: 1/7/2009 at 8:23 PM
Quote from Nobby415 on 1/7/2009 at 7:57 PM:
running fast scares me


Speed scares me.

Pounding down the road, sinews tearing, sweat burning, muscles pumping, pushing forward at the very edge of control, speed terrifies me. The effort hurts. The hurt is not physical. The hurt is in the mind, in the chest, in the spirit, and in the effort required to push faltering legs forward. Step after step. Stride after stride. Without end. On down the road, hoping beyond hope that they will carry me to the finish. And carry me there with any strength, as I feel that very strength falling away. Speed scares me.

They tell me that I should run easy. They tell me that I should run at a conversational pace. I should be able to sing, to multiply, to chat. My heart should be unstrained, my lungs open, my mind clear. The run should be easy, a joy. I should see the creeks and the trees and the deer that cross ahead of me. I should run easy, for if I run too fast, I will strain myself. Run too fast and I will sap my strength. Run too fast and I may undermine my endurance. I will necessarily fall apart and burn out. Too much speed will break me. Don't leave my race on the training run. Build a base, found it on gentle miles and bury in it only a modicum of effort. Be careful to run your easy miles easy. Don't run your fast miles too fast. Take your time. Focus on form. Improve your nutrition. Perfect your gait. lose a few pounds. Run a lot and run slowly; eventually you will be better. That is what they say. And I have learned to fear speed.

I fear speed. If I run too fast, I may fail to reach my goal. My body can carry me, but not forever. The faster I go, the shorter the burn. Too much speed, and I will drop before my goal. Whether in a race or on a lone road, at a point between the starting and the finish lines, my legs may give out. In just a few short strides or over the course of miles, I will dissolve. The legs that carry me will have started strong, tight, trained, but those very legs will melt. They will whither away, unable to support their own weight. My failing legs will drag at my body and mind, tear at my spirit and fill my heart with despair. My strength will drain away: from my legs and from my mind. Too much speed and I may fail. Speed scares me because I know it will burn me up and break me down. It will crush my goals. And it will keep me from finishing with strength.

I fear speed. If I run too fast, my legs will ache and my lungs will wheeze. My bones will rattle. My joints will swell. If I run too fast, my very tendons and ligaments will fail. Running fast will injure me. If I run too much too fast, I will fracture. The sustained repetitive impact will crack my legs. A single effort will pull my muscles away from their attachments. My arches may fall. My fascia may inflame. The bands that hold my body together may rub and rip and fray. All the naysayers at home and at work know it to be so; running will erode the glue that holds me together. And I fear that if I run too fast, my knees will ache. My back will bend. My stomach will cramp. My head will hurt, my thoughts will cloud and I will lose my drive to arouse from my morning bed. If I run too fast, my body and mind will rebel. The speed will stop me in my tracks, it will break me down and I will run no more. Speed scares me because I know it will shatter me. It will cripple me. And it will confirm the fears others have tried to plant in me.

I fear speed. If I run too fast, then I will be branded. I will become too serious. I will be elitist. Those who knew me will think me to be judgmental and condescending to others who run easy. If I run too fast, I will reveal my insecurities. I will expect my former running mates to shun me, to talk about me and secretly to hope for me to fail. They will wish it because they will believe me to be too driven, too compulsive and too focused. If I run too fast, I will no longer enjoy the run. The run will become work, with every step guiding me towards a specific goal. Speed will cycle through me, over the course of rigid training programs, peaks and valleys of effort and a concrete target race or time trial. There will no longer be pick up runs or steamy evening jogs with buddies through shaded streets lit by the setting sun. If I run fast, I can only run fast, alone and free of those who would judge me and those who do not take the work seriously. I can only run as prescribed. Speed scares me because I know it will remove the pleasure from the run. It will isolate me. It will change me and mold me into a caricature.

Yes, I fear speed. But speed is the goal. Speed wins races. Speed garners respect. Speed exposes talent. I may fear speed, and speed brings intense pain, but speed also brings intense pleasure. Speed impresses my friends, and speed impresses me. Speed will test me. Speed will hurt me. And speed will teach me who I am in those deep dark soulful places I might never otherwise touch. If I run hard and run fast and run long all at once, I will risk it all. And when that risk pays off, I will break through. I will become a runner. I will be fast. My hair flowing in the wind, knowing only the intensity of mind, the tear of breathing and the electricity flowing in my legs.

Speed scares me, but I will harvest the fear. I will consume the fear. I will break through it. I will embrace the fear. And I will become fast.
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.


old school badger

posted: 1/7/2009 at 8:42 PM
smart ass comment comming:

39 of your last 42 workouts say "easy".

ok ok I'm a loser. I lurked through your log. Almost all of mine say easy as well. But then again I guess I have to agree with everything you said since my #1 goal is to get fast. And I don't mind pain during a 5k as that's the sign I'm doing it right.
2010 goal = 4:59 for 1,500 meters.


monkey groovy

posted: 1/7/2009 at 8:44 PM
You will also notice that I am taking to heart the idea of "run more" Big grin

My next training cycle starts January 12. Right now I am just accumulating some base.
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.
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