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30 some weeks until my next Marathon: plan? (Read 1379 times)

    Without further hijack, I think that's awesome and thanks for this.   

     

      And stadjak, getting to 100 mpw before any real training starts is an admirable committment, but holy cow will it be tough.  I've never run 100 mpw (maybe I accidentally hit it once but I don't think so) but I built some pretty decent mileage in the past trying to do exactly what you are talking about. 

       

      It will certainly make you strong but it will be a grind.  Mentally as much as physically.  The mental grind, running 13 one day, 15 the next, 20 the next. Going on vacation? Well, how do I fit my 100 miles in? The grind is relentless and consuming.  The rest of your life will suffer. 

       

      Anyway, though I can attribute mileage to most of the improvement I had as a runner, count me among those who think you can get to where you are trying to go in a smarter way. 

       

        Jeff - Thanks a lot for this insight. I appreciate you taking the time to share this knowledge.

         

        Stadjak - Dude .. really sorry about hijacking your thread. If Trent / Eric can move this digression to a new thread, i hope that helps maintain the focus of your original question.

        I dont sweat. I ooze liquid awesome.


        The King of Beasts

           

          It will certainly make you strong but it will be a grind.  Mentally as much as physically.  The mental grind, running 13 one day, 15 the next, 20 the next. Going on vacation? Well, how do I fit my 100 miles in? The grind is relentless and consuming.  The rest of your life will suffer. 

           

           

          get out of my brain

          "As a dreamer of dreams and a travelin' man I have chalked up many a mile. Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, And I've learned much from both of their styles." ~ Jimmy Buffett

           

          "I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."”


          Interval Junkie --Nobby

            Mikeymike:

            Do you have any running background other than whats in your log?

             [...]

            You don't run 47mpw currently.  You have run 47 miles in a week a handful of times in your life.  Big difference.

             

            Other than playing running sports (soccer, ultimate, basketball) and HS track, no.  And most of that was 20 years ago now.  The log is complete other than some "I'll go get some exercise" jogs.  As far as "47mpw": you are completely right.  My avg for the year so far is 43mpw.  But I take your point.  It does leave me wondering how long one needs to run Xmpw to be able to claim it with some legitimacy.

             

            Stadjak, I recommend against this approach. I think you can achieve your marathon goal by holding steady at 50 to 60 miles per week and working on becoming a complete runner, and I bet you can do it in less than 2 years. This would leave you in a much better position: a 3:10 runner at 60 mpw has much more room for improvement than a 3:10 runner at 100mpw.

             

            I would actually recommend not running a marathon this fall and working on your 5k for a while, try to get it down in the 18s. At your pace and experience level, it is very hard to become a complete runner while training for the marathon, much easier to do when training for the 5k.

             

            While I could be wrong about this, and probably there are exceptions, I would say that for the purposes of training no one should be running an average of 80mpw until they have at least 5 or 6 years of experience running and have built progressively to that volume. A reasonable progression that assumes no major setbacks in my opinion would look something like the following, working on the marathon for one season, 5k for the next season.

             

            2012: avg 50mpw - 3:20, 5k 19:00

            2013: avg 60mpw - 3:10, 5k 18:30

            2014: avg 75mpw - 3:00, 5k 17:30ish

            2015: avg 85 mpw - 2:45 or faster 5k sub 17

             

            Now, if you just want to go out and run all the time because you love it, that's a different story.

             

             Jeff, please tell me you won't ever use that avatar for evil.  I find that it, coupled with the confident advice above, is a compelling combination.  Fortunately, I read it before my 7mi run yesterday, so had a whole hour to kneed it back and forth in my brain.

             

            I have a few considerations:

            1. I'm 39, which is different than issuing this advice to a 22yo; I'm expecting my body's decline in the near future -- so any investment needs to consider the shorter-payoff time.  
            2. I'm seduced by miles.  This part personality, part social.  My favorites of the Marathon training were the 20+ runs followed by intervals.  I like being exhausted after a run.  The social part comes into play when I report what I did: 20mi gets recognition, which is only important for encouragement.
            3. My post-BQ goal is Ultras
            4. I am completely willing to 'invest' for a potential long-term payout.  I play the long game in most of my life.
            5. When I hit the sharpening phase of my marathon plan I really started to see some lasting improvements in long runs: before my 'easy' pace was about 9:15.  During the sharpening my 'easy' was about 8:15.  Now, in recovery my 'easy' pace is about 8:35.  So if this is an indication of how 5k training can improve marathon performance, I'm sold.

            Where I thought you were going with your advice was the benefit in improved running economy at shorter distances.  I hadn't thought of 'racing'.  You make an important point that helps me make sense of one of my marathon frustrations.  I've reviewed my marathon performance a few times, looking my errors.  I made them with the knowledge of what I was deciding between -- but without the wisdom to evaluate them correctly.  More racing sounds like a great idea.  I was going to pursue lots of racing w/o actually training specifically for the races, but that sounds like I'd only get a glimpse of what I should be learning.

             

            So, now I'm interested in looking at a few 5k improvement plans.  I have Daniel's book, but haven't cracked it yet.  Can you recommend any other sources? (bolded so it doesn't get lost in the tl;dr)

             

            Some people mentioned the 'grind' of big mpw.  I found it fun trying to hit 70 in my marathon training.  Part of that was the new frontier aspect (never run that many before).  Maybe it would wear on me.

             

            On that note, Jeff said, "This would leave you in a much better position: a 3:10 runner at 60 mpw has much more room for improvement than a 3:10 runner at 100mpw."  I'm not sure what to make of this statement.  There seems to be a hidden assumption driving the conclusion.  Is it implied that the 100mpw runner has already accessed more of his potential since he can only seem to run a 3:10 at 100mpw? Adding more miles leads to diminishing returns and 100 is already on the plateau?  Does the conclusion still hold if the coach told both runners to drop down to 40mpw and do lots more hills and speed work?  Would the 100mpw runner be at a disadvantage somehow?

             

            Oh,and as far as hijacking: nothing could be further from the truth.  The discussion headed exactly where I would followed it.  There's some good quality stuff up there.

            2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

            Current Status 08/28: Slowly working back up from a pelvic stress fracture.  4mil distance PR w00t!

            DoppleBock


              Grinder

               

               

              It will certainly make you strong but it will be a grind.  Mentally as much as physically.  The mental grind, running 13 one day, 15 the next, 20 the next. Going on vacation? Well, how do I fit my 100 miles in? The grind is relentless and consuming.  The rest of your life will suffer. 

              http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

              2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

               

              DoppleBock


                How's the grinding going? 

                 

                get out of my brain

                http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                 

                  While I'm not exactly in the same place as the OP, my situation is not too dissimilar. I have raced only a small number of races, two of which were marathons. The better of the two being 3:28, but more recently ran a 1:32 half and was targeting a fall marathon to try to better my marathon time, as I think I could improve on 3:28 quite a bit. Now, the advice from the seasoned runners here has me thinking through this a bit more.

                   

                  Let's say I decide to focus on racing well at shorter distances, what resources/plans would you guys recommend? Julia mentioned Daniels Running Formula having a good 5k training program, any others?

                   

                  As a bit of a side, I'll admit to falling victim to the "glory" of 26.2. If I'm honest, I've always viewed shorter distance races as a means toward a faster marathon time. The thought of truly focusing on shorter quality racing is a bit of a mental relief - knowing full well I can still train with purpose and intensity. Maybe that in itself proves I should hold off on another marathon attempt. After all my end goal is to be a good runner at any distance.

                   

                  Sorry for the further hijacking.

                   

                  Modified to fix some improper grammar.

                    As a start, what I've been doing is looking at Mr. Alfie's log from January to today. 

                     

                    From what I've gathered, the mileage is moderate, the workouts are shorter (in both total miles and in interval length), the intensity is present but not over the top.  But there are like 4 runs per week that have quality in them and he has practiced the distance often.  The intervals started short  back in January but have increased in duration.  For instance, a 400/800/400 workout is now 800/1600/800 as he is getting closer to peaking.  And there's flexibility built in because there's so much quality and such low mileage. 

                     

                    I suspect you would have to have a decent base like Nader has to be able to have this work. 

                     

                      Since we all want plans, here's a 5K plan, Courtesy of Pete Magill and Running times (I think)

                       

                      Medium Run is about 50% longer than the short run and the long run is about 50-100% longer than the medium run.

                       
                      1) BASE-BUILDING PHASE

                      Use this two-week pattern of workouts several times before your racing season starts.

                       

                      Day	 	        AM     		PM
                      Monday 5K Effort Repetitions
                      Tuesday Medium Run
                      Wednesday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Thursday Technique Drills/Short Hill Sprints
                      Friday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Saturday Long Run with Hills
                      Sunday Short Run,Medium Run or Off
                      Monday 5K Effort Repetitions
                      Tuesday Medium Run
                      Wednesday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Thursday Long Hill Repeats
                      Friday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Saturday Long Run
                      Sunday Short Run, Medium Run or Off

                       

                      2) RACE PHASE - Follow this schedule before your key 5K races of the year to reach them rested and raring to go.

                      Day AM PM
                      Monday Tempo Run
                      Tuesday Medium Run
                      Wednesday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Thursday 16 x 200m (3K effort), with 200m jog
                      Friday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Saturday Long Run
                      Sunday Short Run, Medium Run or Off
                      Monday 20 x 400m (5K effort), with 100m jog
                      Tuesday Short Run* Medium Run
                      Wednesday Park or Trail Fartlek
                      Thursday Short or Medium Run
                      Friday 20-minute Run or Off
                      Saturday RACE
                      Sunday Short Run, Medium Run or Off

                      * = optional workout


                      Interval Junkie --Nobby

                        I think this is the article HappyFeet is referencing.  Looks pretty good.  I'll go digest.

                        2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

                        Current Status 08/28: Slowly working back up from a pelvic stress fracture.  4mil distance PR w00t!

                          1. I'm 39, which is different than issuing this advice to a 22yo; I'm expecting my body's decline in the near future 

                           

                          I think you'll find this to not be true. At least I hope so.

                           

                          Jeff's response is gold. I fell into the marathon drama too. Raced shorter distances but never trained for them. But the marathon got me out the door, made me consistent and built my base. I think I can run a good marathon in May. But I also know I'll never run an optimal marathon until I get better at 5k and 10k. And I'll be 44 next month and think I can improve my 5K for the next 4-5 years. 

                           

                          Also, if I had focused on the shorter distances first, I likely would have been better able to handle the rigors of marathon-specific training without so many niggling injuries. 

                           

                          xor


                            The decline is real.

                             

                            And it is spectacular.

                             

                            (eh. I was in terrible shape from 18-21, phenomenal shape from 22-24, then progressively poorer and poorer shape from 24-34. I saw the light at 34, sort of.  I was in way better shape at 39 than 34 and I'm in even better shape at 45 than 39.  BUT THAT SAID.  Yeah, there are certain things I have to worry about now that didn't bug me in my 20s.  Fried foods? Super hot sauce?  Screw that these days. And I can't stay up past 11.  Among other things.  And my mind is gone.  Wait. What was I talking about?)

                             

                              If one follows that plan above, comes out to about 8-10 hours per week, and probably is more than what most of us run training for a marathon (50-70 MPW, depending on how fast one is). Only thing that may need changed for longer races are the repetitions, longer reps with shorter recovery for longer races. 

                                Mr. Alfie's

                                 

                                Hey now, you go right ahead and call me "Nader."

                                 

                                "Mr. Alfie" is my father.

                                 

                                 

                                HAHAHAHHAHAAH!

                                "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

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