Seeking Fat Acceptance (Read 3394 times)

Scout7


CPT Curmudgeon

     

    Yep.

     

    But the insurance plans are incented by the high costs of taking care of folks who cost more to shift their care out of the group.  Ultimately, the care goes uncovered and folks are effectively uninsured or underinsured.  And then we all pay.

     Agreed.

     

     In the end, we all pay for it, regardless of the route taken.

     

    So if we want to reduce our health care costs, maybe we should look at lifestyle and cultural changes, and not legislation.  But that's mere hypothesizing on my part.


    A Dance with Monkeys

      Or change the current subsidies that promkote overproduction of corn and soy.


      Hey, nice marmot!

        As far as discrimination goes, I think it really does matter "why are people fat?"

         

        For instance, it is generally considered wrong/illegal/immoral/etc. to discriminate against someone based on factors they can't control (race, sex, age, place of birth, physical diability, etc.)  However, you can discriminate based on factors someone can control, like personal appearance.  If I walk into a fancy restaurant in DC wearing nothing but a wife beater and a jock strap, they'll probably refuse to serve me because of my appearance.  I wouldn't really have a case against them because it is within my ability to change my personal apperance to conform to the restaurant's standards.  I can choose to walk around in a wife beater and a jock strap, but if I do, I can't stop people from treating me differently than they would were I dressed normal.

         

        On a related note, I'm working on a theory.  I think global warming is a sham.  The temperatures are remaining constant, but since everyone's getting bigger, it just feels warmer.  Evidence will be forthcoming.

        Ben

         

        "The world is my country, science is my religion."-- Christiaan Huygens

          I agree with some of the posts:

          1.  Obese people should not be discriminated against just like people of different race, sex, etc.  But they should carry higher health care coverage.  And they should be strongly encouraged to take measures to change their lifestyle. 

          2.  I don't want to hear "its not my fault".  The amount of obesity that is out of someone's control to limit or eliminate is way less than 5%.  The rest is too much fast food and not enough exercise.

          3.  I agree it is getting worse.  When I was in elementary school in the early '80s, we had "the fat kid" in class.  Only one in a class of 30.  My teacher friends tell me 30-50% of their kids are overweight if not obese.  They can't even finish a friggin lap around the soccer field.  Its sad.  These kids are being set up for a lifetime of misery, where I hope they don't justify it by saying "well, everyone else is fat too."

          4.  My wife is from Brazil, where there aren't many fat people.  Big reasons?  She says 1) they don't have nearly as much fast food 2) fast food/unhealthy food is relatively expensive compared to regular healthy food (opposite of here) 3) people walk more/exercise more just in completing their daily life 4) huge portion sizes in America - she never eats a full meal at a restaurant.  When she arrived in the US in 2004 she said one of the first things she saw was how many fat people there are and she was shocked.

          5.  There needs to be a better concept of "active."  A person cannot claim to be active if they are 5-6 and 220 "but I play softball on some Saturdays."  Yeah well I may have a couple beers on some Saturdays but that does not make me an alcoholic.

          6.  Insurance companies are evil, greedy, and stupid (take this from someone in the health care industry who deals with them every day).  They will take any measure not to pay us, pay/cover the patient, and charge higher rates for any excuse they can.  Having the government take over everything is NOT the answer, to make insurance companies follow ethical business practices is much better.

           

          I think a different measure for BMI needs to be created only for athletic people/people with high muscle mass.  I happen to be one of the 200 pound exceptions.  I am 6-3 and my BMI hovers at or just above 25, even when my weight gets down as far as it can go (low 190's).  So I am always straddling the line between "normal" and "overweight" and WiiFit has yelled at me for my BMI and I tell it to shut up. 

          BMI does not take into account that I play ice hockey, I can bench press over 300 pounds, run 30-40 miles per week, have a 33 inch waist, or that I came in at 8% body fat.  All my blood levels came back good to excellent with the exception of having low "good" cholesterol (has more to do with heredity than anything).  If I get thrown into a higher insurance rate category due to my BMI I will take a hockey stick to someone's head and they'll find out just how athletic I am.


          A Dance with Monkeys


            I think a different measure for BMI needs to be created only for athletic people/people with high muscle mass

             

            The test you seek is called the body fat percentage. What is yours? BMI is a screen, BF% is a diagnostic measure.
              I did the water displacement test a few years ago and was around 10% when I weighed 205.  Is that what you mean?  The 8% was from calipers, where he had trouble getting any fat to pinch at all on my arms, also one of those hydrolysis scales that I don't put much faith in came back at 8%.
              Scout7


              CPT Curmudgeon


                6.  Insurance companies are evil, greedy, and stupid (take this from someone in the health care industry who deals with them every day).  They will take any measure not to pay us, pay/cover the patient, and charge higher rates for any excuse they can.  Having the government take over everything is NOT the answer, to make insurance companies follow ethical business practices is much better.


                 Companies cannot be evil, greedy, or stupid.  They are inanimate objects.  People within those companies can be evil, greedy, and stupid.  But is that really a fair assessment of the people who work for insurance companies?  Perhaps their perspective is that health care providers are stupid, greedy, and evil.  If both sides view the other in the same negative light, how can we possibly ever hope to change the current system?

                 

                Imagine if each side decided to look at the problem from the other's perspective.  Perhaps each will realize that they are not competitors, but can work together for the betterment of each other.  Maybe the issue isn't about legislating health care costs, but about taking the time to be respectful and understanding of everyone's position.

                C-R


                  Its the "Im ok, you're ok" crap from the 60s paying dividends via victimology. We all pay some subsidy for others in most everything we do. That's normal business. Loss leaders to cash cows.

                   

                  Don't know the reasons but at some point it becomes a personal responsibility for the vast majority (not talking about those with medical reasons beyond their control). When you get sick and tired of being sick and tired, you'll try something different.

                   

                  I agree on the comment of a larger percentage of overweight kids. I see this everywhere. Our kids are what I call healthy and active and we had some parents ask if we even feed them.

                   

                  No answers other than discrimination is not good but its missing the second half of the equation: do something to change the situation if its under your control or live with the consequences of the actions/inactions.

                   


                  "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                  "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                  http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

                    Ok, the companies' POLICIES are evil, greedy and stupid.  I'm sure there are individuals who work for them who are evil, greedy, and stupid and some who are not.  And yes, some health care providers are evil, greedy and stupid (trust me, I worked at a major research instituation) and some are not. 

                    But I could go on all day about insurance companies...I'll spare the forum space.  Let's just leave it as 50% or more of the problems we have with patients can be traced directly back to something an insurance company did, didn't do, or won't do.  The system sucks - I feel sorry for patients.

                     

                    But...having the government take it over is NOT the answer.  Example:  we currently can't get syringes for vaccinations and are scrambling for back door channels to get them.  Why?  The government commandeered all the syringe orders for their H1N1 programs that they still haven't figured out.  So in the meantime it makes it a lot more difficult for us to give out other vaccinations - including regular flu.  Where most regular flu vaccine orders are on hold because the government ordered companies to stop making it to make H1N1 vaccine for them.  I'm betting at the end of this we have a terrible season of regular flu while piles and piles of unused syringes and H1N1 vaccine will sit unused in government warehouses.

                     

                    I also watch "The Biggest Loser".  I respect anyone who is trying to make a difference with their health, even if they happen to be fat at the time they start.  If they try hard enough, they'll be less fat or not fat at all.  If you look behind the advertising and overdone reality drama it has, the message is clear and its great - no matter how out of shape you let yourself get, you can reverse it with hard work, smarter decisions, and a better/more healthy mindset.

                    Scout7


                    CPT Curmudgeon

                      Ok, the companies' POLICIES are evil, greedy and stupid.  I'm sure there are individuals who work for them who are evil, greedy, and stupid and some who are not.  And yes, some health care providers are evil, greedy and stupid (trust me, I worked at a major research instituation) and some are not. 

                      But I could go on all day about insurance companies...I'll spare the forum space.  Let's just leave it as 50% or more of the problems we have with patients can be traced directly back to something an insurance company did, didn't do, or won't do.  The system sucks - I feel sorry for patients.


                       

                      You may very well be right.  Maybe 50% or more of the problems faced by patients are caused by insurance companies.  But my question is...why?  Why do you feel that way?  And have you ever attempted to view the situations from the standpoint of those very insurance companies you rail against?

                       

                      Why does the system suck?  Personally, I have never had much of a problem with it.  Maybe I'm in the lucky minority; I couldn't say one way or the other.  But as someone who is not in health care, I can give you my perspective on the debate.

                       

                      Quite simply, I think both sides are at fault.  Insurance companies are doing what they feel is best in regards to their goals, which is to maximize stakeholder benefits.  Health care providers are doing what they feel is best in regards to their goals, which is to maximize stakeholder benefits.  Unfortunately, each side views their goals at being at odds with the other side's.  So providers try to game the system to do what they feel is right, and insurance companies try to prevent the gaming to do what they feel is right.  Who is right?

                       

                      It is far too easy to sit and rail against our perceived opponents; I know because i've been guilty of doing it more often than not.  It's much more difficult to try to change our perception of our opponents, and see their side of the issue.  And as someone who is not in health care, I see too little of that being done, and too much of battle lines being drawn.  I understand how Europe felt during the Cold War.  My fate is not in my hands, and will be decided by people that I feel I have no influence over.


                      Hey, nice marmot!

                         

                        It's much more difficult to try to change our perception of our opponents, and see their side of the issue.  

                         

                        "To make peace with your enemy, you must go to war with yourself." 

                        Ben

                         

                        "The world is my country, science is my religion."-- Christiaan Huygens


                        Prince of Fatness

                          So far three eyes have popped out of my head.  A fourth is on the verge.

                          Semi-retired.

                            So far three eyes have popped out of my head.  A fourth is on the verge.

                             

                            now don't try and end this discussion you... Jeff doesn't have nearly enough good information yet for a

                            pilosophical paper. 

                            In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

                            http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white&fb_source=message

                             

                             

                             

                              and really... when you get down to it... it's the doctors fault anyway.

                               

                              http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091009/ap_on_en_tv/us_unhealthiest_city_10

                               

                              "One of the ways we improve the health of our community is to recruit outstanding physicians from not only around the country, but around the world," he said. "I'm worried that if we get pinned with that label, it's going to be harder for us to recruit physicians and their families to come here."

                              In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

                              http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white&fb_source=message

                               

                               

                               

                                Ditto on the shout-out for Biggest Loser!  That is a perfect example of fat/obese people coming into grasps of their issues with diet and exercise.  That's all the show is about - how to make the BEST choice in food and balance it out with EXERCISE.


                                And, it's funny because if you watch the first episode of each season, the contestants always explain how they were in total denial of how unhealthy and big they were.  I think more obese people should watch that show...it's very inspirational.  They ended last season with the contestants running a full marathon.  That's awesome.