Seeking Fat Acceptance (Read 3394 times)


Mayo

    Aren't there two issues?

     

    There first issue is the facts. Obesity is on the rise. This has social and personal costs. It's a problem. I don't think there are many who disagree with these facts.

     

    The second issue is the social reactions to obesity. This is the ethical issue: what is the relation between social opprobrium towards the fat and solving the problem of obesity? Does ridicule or social isolation work to address the issue of obesity? It doesn't appear to work: there is plenty of social approbation against obesity, and yet obesity is on the rise. In fact, I think you could say that these two things are rising together--they seem to be correlated, not opposed.

     

    I think many people in this thread are confusing these two issues. The fact that obesity is a problem is no justification for a particular reaction to that problem. Especially if that reaction seems to be particularly ineffective at solving the problem of obesity. The only thing it does seem to be effective in doing is punishing the obese. The case has to be made that negative social reactions that produce guilt and shame in the obese actually leads to solution of the problem of obesity. Without showing this sort of causal relation, there is no defense of the behavior.

     

    I think there's a third issue here, which is the business model reaction to issue #1, related to the financial costs to these businesses as a result of the rise in obesity.  However, many are seeing the reaction to issue #1 as a social reaction designed to ridicule, isolate, and punish.  It's not.  It's just cold, calculated business.  Cause greater cost to be incurred by a business providing a service to you? Expect higher fees for that service from that business.

     

    MTA:  Damnit Trent! (  )

    MM# 4597 / HF #941




    A Dance with Monkeys

      Didn't I just say that?

         

        I think there's a third issue here, which is the business model reaction to issue #1, related to the financial costs to these businesses as a result of the rise in obesity.  However, many are seeing the reaction to issue #1 as a social reaction designed to ridicule, isolate, and punish.  It's not.  It's just cold, calculated business.  Cause greater cost to be incurred by a business providing a service to you? Expect higher fees for that service from that business.

         

        No, this is a serious ethical issue. It's not just a question of business. It's also a question of how much we as a society want to invest in health, where we want to invest it, and who will be granted access and who will be denied--and who is authorized to make these decisions. And how we as people with some degree of power to control our environment might reorganize the system so that it leads to better living. And what values are involved in this reorganization.

         

        Ethics.


        Broken

           

          No, this is a serious ethical issue. It's not just a question of business. It's also a question of how much we as a society want to invest in health, where we want to invest it, and who will be granted access and who will be denied--and who is authorized to make these decisions. And how we as people with some degree of power to control our environment might reorganize the system so that it leads to better living. And what values are involved in this reorganization.

           

          Ethics.

           

          I nominate myself as supreme Health Czar.  I will make all decisions.  Including paying myself 1 (pinky to mouth) MILLION dollars a year. 

           

          Is there a second?

          Thunder smash!

          Scout7


          CPT Curmudgeon

            Another aspect is that I don't think anyone has firmly stated what the desired outcomes are; at least, I haven't heard any.  How can we possibly come up with a plan when we don't even know what we're working towards?


            HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

              Another aspect is that I don't think anyone has firmly stated what the desired outcomes are; at least, I haven't heard any.  How can we possibly come up with a plan when we don't even know what we're working towards?

               

               

              The most productive way forward is to figure out which well-organized subgroups are the best financed, and find some sort of compromise that at least appears to work towards their goals.

              It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                 

                So this extreme reaction is partly what I was referring too...  Especially in the case over the overweight and not morbidly obese, someone "fat" can be physically active - moreso than just a walk even.... Also, you're assuming it's all binging on junk... Most people who gain weight don't gain mass amounts in a short period (unless there's something wrong) - they put on extra weight over a long time.  To gain 1 lb a month (12 extra lb a year... which is still pretty fast), it's less than 120 Calories a day over what you need to maintain your weight... That's a glass of milk, a banana, a can of soda... definitely not some gluttonous lack of control they have that the rest of us manage to restrain from.  This is where I agree there IS a bias.

                And let's not even get into all the disagreements on and lack of education on nutrition out there.

                 

                I'm just saying this viewpoint is a little simplistic.

                 

                Actually, yes, my viewpoint IS simplistic. It's pretty simple to be careful with the foods you buy, be careful what foods you put in your mouth and get some exercise. We should stop being so accepting with obesity because it IS dangerous, and it IS unhealthy. How can you say that  "it is not some lack of control that the rest of us manage to restrain from?" It definitely takes some self control to not go grab a poptart every morning for breakfast like all my friends do, or to grab a diet instead of regular, or not to walk into starbucks and buy a venti-moca-whole milk-frappacunio...I'm not assuming its all binging on junk either. It's simply living a healthy lifestyle, which the typical person should not have too much trouble with.

                It's normal for humans to have the "seek pleasure, avoid pain" mentality. The average person wants to drive instead of walk, grab lunch at the fast food joint, and running 2 miles seems out of the question. But perhaps we should teach our kids that hey, a bit of pain never killed anyone, in fact, if you want to live longer and not die of clogged arteries, perhaps you should entertain the thought. 

                I don't discriminate against fat people. I simply think they should re-evaluate their lifestyle and realize that continuing to live that way is by no means good for anything...

                  so what if you just allowed insurance companies to discrimiate however they wanted to with pricing.  I mean, homosexuals have increased risks, African Americans, poor whites and hispanics have a shorter life span and greater obesity statistics.  Insurance companies charge for car insurance based on your zip code.  It's a small leap from there right?

                   

                  (obviously I'm just stirring the pot... I don't advocate discrimination)

                  In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

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                  xor


                    I want a pop tart.

                     


                    Hey, nice marmot!

                       

                      No, this is a serious ethical issue. It's not just a question of business. It's also a question of how much we as a society want to invest in health, where we want to invest it, and who will be granted access and who will be denied--and who is authorized to make these decisions. And how we as people with some degree of power to control our environment might reorganize the system so that it leads to better living. And what values are involved in this reorganization.

                       

                      Ethics.

                       

                       

                      I would disagree.  It's a financial question that may have ethical implications, but at the end of the day, it comes down to money.  It usually does.

                       

                      Not to say those ethical questions aren't important, but they're not what will be used to craft a solution.  The solution chosen will be the one most desirable to those already in charge.  Ethical arguements supporting the solution will be crafted after the fact.

                      Ben

                       

                      "The world is my country, science is my religion."-- Christiaan Huygens

                        MMMmmm, poptarts. Heaven in a box. Tongue


                        Hey, nice marmot!

                          They have low-fat pop tarts nowadays.  They're good for you, though they can cause anal-leakage.

                          Ben

                           

                          "The world is my country, science is my religion."-- Christiaan Huygens


                          Mayo

                             

                            No, this is a serious ethical issue. It's not just a question of business. It's also a question of how much we as a society want to invest in health, where we want to invest it, and who will be granted access and who will be denied--and who is authorized to make these decisions. And how we as people with some degree of power to control our environment might reorganize the system so that it leads to better living. And what values are involved in this reorganization.

                             

                            Ethics.

                             

                            In the larger realm of creating or redesigning our healthcare system to accomodate all and provide for all so that we each become healthier people, yes, but in the more narrow realm of the original article you linked to, I disagree.  As long as private businesses are providing the service (insurance), they are going to be working in a market-based economy, and striving to make a profit.  Part of that business model (most business models, actually), is that if you cause me to incur higher costs to provide you a service, I should charge you a higher price for that service. 

                             

                            If we are looking to ensure that all have adequate health coverage no matter what the illness, we should expect that the more ill and more sickly will have higher premiums, to start with.  If the result of reform is that we subsidize the costs for the more ill/sickly person, to help them recover and become more healthy, and thereby reduce their long-term overall cost on the healthcare system, fine.  But if a person chooses to remain in a more ill or more sickly condition that they have control over, and not take action to reduce their cost to the healthcare system, then they should not be eligible for the subsidy for their increased cost.  And I don't think this decision (to provide or deny the subsidy) should be in the control of the private businesses.  Let them do the business they know how to do well.

                             

                            Is that the ethics you're speaking of?

                            MM# 4597 / HF #941




                            Broken

                              My wife did get the Governor of Tennessee to declare May is "Exercise is Medicine Month" henceforth. 

                               

                               

                              Still no second?

                              Thunder smash!

                                I nominate Thunder's wife.

                                In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

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