Heart Rate Math Question (Read 2722 times)

RadarLuv


    Hello Everyone.

     

    I've decided to try heart rate training for a 10K in May, and my first marathon in the fall (I've done 2 half marathons). 

     

    Lets say my MHR is 183 and my RHR is 60.  If I want to run at 75% MHR, is it 183 X .75, or ((183-60) X .75)+60

     

    Thanks!

      Hello Everyone.

       

      I've decided to try heart rate training for a 10K in May, and my first marathon in the fall (I've done 2 half marathons). 

       

      Lets say my MHR is 183 and my RHR is 60.  If I want to run at 75% MHR, is it 183 X .75, or ((183-60) X .75)+60

       

      Thanks!

       

      Personally I like the latter because that formula actually take your current fitness level, not just your age, into consideration.  But that's based on the assumption that you got 183 as 220 - your age (37?).  I think the original formula is supposed to be (220 - age - RHR) X 75% + RHR  If you got 183 as your MHR from other more accurate process like treadmill test, then there's nothing wrong with using the first formula because it IS your MHR.

       

      These formula, as far as I'm concerned, is still nothing but a guide.  I actually never really calculate what my target HR might be but I pretty much know, from my experience, what sort of HR I should be while running.  If I do intervals, I'll start the next fast run when my HR comes down to about 140 because, if I wait till it comes down to 120, it'll take too long and I might need to start warm-up all over again!!  That came from experience.  I believe HR training works if done correctly.  And doing it correctly in most cases come from knowing your own body's reaction istead of following some formula.

      RadarLuv


        That makes sense.  I'm just trying to avoid running too hard on my long/easy runs this time.  After doing some reading, I know I was running way too fast during my training for the half marathon.  I'm quite enthused about doing it right this time.

         

        I'm guessing keeping the beats per minutes in a 10 to 15 beat range on the long runs would work.

          That makes sense.  I'm just trying to avoid running too hard on my long/easy runs this time.  After doing some reading, I know I was running way too fast during my training for the half marathon.  I'm quite enthused about doing it right this time.

           

          I'm guessing keeping the beats per minutes in a 10 to 15 beat range on the long runs would work.

           

          I'm actually a big believer of HR, not that I use it all the time.  In fact I have a chart with the formula you had mentioned on my Excel and all I have to do is to plug in my RHR and it'll calculate the range of HR that I should be in.  Again, not that I use it all the time but, after a while, you'll get the hang of it and you'll know.  After all, the main purpose of using HRM, to me, is to teach yourself what it feels like.  So ideally, you should be able to remove HRM and you'll be in-tuned by them.  I heard the story that Frank Shorter was so in-tuned with himself that, in one local race, he even pointed out some mile marker was off because he knew just exactly how fast he was running.  I heard the same story with one of the Soh brothers when they ran 1983 Tokyo marathon that the first 5k mark was off.  Surprisingly, he wasn't the only one who pointed out after the race.

           

          Equally important is to check your morning pulse.  There's nothing wrong with pushing yourself here and there but, if it accumulates, it'll start to give some ill effect.  One of the first places you can detect it is the morning pulse.  If it's10% or more higher than normal, that's a good indication that you're not fully recovered. 

            Hello Everyone.

             

            I've decided to try heart rate training for a 10K in May, and my first marathon in the fall (I've done 2 half marathons). 

             

            Lets say my MHR is 183 and my RHR is 60.  If I want to run at 75% MHR, is it 183 X .75, or ((183-60) X .75)+60

             

            Thanks!

             

            Just to expand on Nobby's post, you need to be sure what reference point is being used and which percentages are used with that reference point. That is, HRmax, HRR (heart rate reserve or Karvonen, your 2nd formula), LT HR, or some others can all be used as reference points. But each would use a different percentage for whatever zones. 

             

            For you, a 75% HRmax is about 137bpm. 75% HRR is about 152. Your numbers are similar to mine (HRmax of 180, RHR of 60), and 75% HRmax is "easy", can talk. 75% HRR, however, is very close to sub-LT, and my sentences will definitely be shorter in a talk test.  75% HRmax corresponds about to 63% HRR.

             

            This is assuming your HRmax is from a test of some sort and not an age-based formula (there are many out there).

             

            When in doubt for an aerobic run, just be sure you can talk in short or longer sentences.

             

            But like Nobby said, you should be able to tell what your HR is without looking - at least after awhile. I still use my HRM, but use it mostly for logging data and occasionally double checking something if I'm trying to hit a certain effort. (on snowy hills, sometimes things seem harder than my heart seems to think they are) (it also has better hill data than wrist gps units)

            "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

              Or you could use the Maffetone Method of LHR training.

               

              In the Maffetone Method, Dr. Maffetone uses a very simple formula to determine your MAF (Maximum Aerobic Function) heart rate. The formula for your MAF (180-age) represents the upper limit HR you should be training at. The formula also has a few adjustment factors for you current fitness and health status. Assuming your age is 37, your MAF would be 180-37=143 without any adjustments. You would run and keep your HR anywhere between 1333 and 143 while working out. That means if you get to a hill and your HR begins to rise above 143 (which it will), you need to slow down or even walk to control your HR.

               

              There is a LHR training group on RA that you may want to check out. There are a few pretty knowledgeable people in that group and Dr. MAffetone checks in from time to time to answer some questions and add some insight.

               

              The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

               

              2014 Goals:

               

              Stay healthy

              Enjoy life

               

                Or you could use the Maffetone Method of LHR training.

                 

                In the Maffetone Method, Dr. Maffetone uses a very simple formula to determine your MAF (Maximum Aerobic Function) heart rate. The formula for your MAF (180-age) represents the upper limit HR you should be training at. The formula also has a few adjustment factors for you current fitness and health status. ..

                My MAF number comes out to something near 120-125bpm (63F, most of the fudge factors cancel out). My 75% HRmax is about 135bpm, 1-hr race effort near 155-157bpm. Will I get the same cardio and muscle benefits from running 120bpm (if I could) vs 135bpm? Or is MAF aimed at something else?

                "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


                Consistently Slow

                  My MAF number comes out to something near 120-125bpm (63F, most of the fudge factors cancel out). My 75% HRmax is about 135bpm, 1-hr race effort near 155-157bpm. Will I get the same cardio and muscle benefits from running 120bpm (if I could) vs 135bpm? Or is MAF aimed at something else?

                  120 bpm  would give you a better aerobic workout.

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2014***1500 miles

                  50 miler 13:26:18

                  Race Less Train More

                   

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                    120 bpm  would give you a better aerobic workout.

                    Better how?

                      I found this on the "Technical" page a couple days ago...

                       

                      It's Maffetone's model in description.  Very interesting.  I hadn't heard of the formula until then.

                      http://www.myjjk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1519

                       

                      It mentions something about challenges for those over 65 and under 18, I think.


                      Either way, it's a good read (even if it was written nearly 10 years ago.


                      Cheers,

                      2014 Goals:

                      #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                      #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                       


                      Consistently Slow

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                        2014***1500 miles

                        50 miler 13:26:18

                        Race Less Train More

                         

                        Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                        "The Marble in The Groove"

                         

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        jimmyb


                          My MAF number comes out to something near 120-125bpm (63F, most of the fudge factors cancel out). My 75% HRmax is about 135bpm, 1-hr race effort near 155-157bpm. Will I get the same cardio and muscle benefits from running 120bpm (if I could) vs 135bpm? Or is MAF aimed at something else?

                           

                          The Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) is basically the point right before you start engaging the anaerobic system. Dr. Maffetone's definitions for aerobic and anaerobic are different than the prevailing ones and are based on RG gas tests that measure fat/sugar burning. When you are aerobic, in his terms, you are using your slow-twitch type 1 (red) fibers and are using mainly fat as fuel. There is some sugar used to burn the fat, but the fat is the main fuel. The anaerobic uses sugar or glycogen.  He contends that aerobic training should not involve the anaerobic system during the base period, as he found it to be counterproductive in developing the aerobic system. THe MAF is used as a HR ceiling during aerobic base-building, and for what is called the MAF test, which is a test that monitors the state and health of your aerobic system, aerobic speed, and can be used as a tool to guide you through all phases of training. The goal is to build aerobic speed, without sacrificing your health. It should be understodd that this is part of a holistic program that involves anaerobic training (speed work), racing, dietary considerations, and most importantly managing the total stress you are putting on your body. This includes not only training stress, but the mental stress that ultimately affects your body. Notables that used the method are Mark Allen and Mike Pigg. Here are a few links if you are interested. You can educate yourself about it and see if it something you will take or leave. Most people come to it after getting fed up with injuries and over-training:


                          Low Heart Rate Training thread (also includes Van Aaken, Hadd, and other forms of LHRT)


                          Mark Allen on Maffetone Training

                           

                           The MAF Test at Dr. Maffetone's Website


                          excerpt on Mark Allen's training from the Lore Of Running (the 8k test he used as a guide is the MAF test)

                           

                          Case Study

                           

                          I've used the method since 2005, and has helped me to some good times, and through

                          some subsequent periods of high mental stress. The only time I've over-trained or been injured

                          since 2005, is when I ignored either my MAF tests or did anaerobic work at the wrong time.

                          WIsh you the best, and hope you find something that works for you.

                          --Jimmy

                          Log    PRs

                            The Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) is basically the point right before you start engaging the anaerobic system. ..

                             

                            I've used the method since 2005, and has helped me to some good times, and through

                            some subsequent periods of high mental stress. The only time I've over-trained or been injured

                            since 2005, is when I ignored either my MAF tests or did anaerobic work at the wrong time.

                            WIsh you the best, and hope you find something that works for you.

                            --Jimmy

                            Thanks. My question was really a baited question to see if  the person that suggested LHRT could actually explain the benefits rather than just pointing to the long FAQ's.

                             

                            I'm curious, though, what is your HR at MAF and your 75% HRmax (or even 70%)?

                             

                            Most (not all) people that I've seen post with success are usually people whose MAF and normal HR training zones would overlap a lot or at least not be completely separate. OR they've trained hard in the past - too hard - and need some level of recovery. OR they live in flat areas without snow.

                             

                            When I tried it a number of years ago (maybe 2003 or 2004, using one of his books), the HR where Maffetone would have had the cap was about 10-15 bpm below the HR where I could jog very slowly. I was either going to have to walk or slog very slowly. I do that all summer in the field. For recreation in the winter, I liked to run a bit - up hills. Ski, snowshoe running, whatever. The HR caps almost required a change in life style - giving up many activities.  Worse, when I abandoned it, I had to rebuild the little bit of base that I had prior to that, so lost a good bit of training time that year.

                             

                            What's interesting is when I started do harder hill work, the HR at which I could run dropped substantially. That happened in two different increments a couple years apart. My recovery runs now are generally about 70-75% HRmax and hit the top edge of the MAF number. For *me*, I seem to work better (or at least reduce HR at which I can run) with workouts that deal with neuromuscular benefits. And just using 1-hr race effort as cap during base (and I very rarely go above this) has worked very well.

                             

                            If one believes the HR tables of Martin and Coe and the various benefits of various intensities (mitochondria, stroke volume, etc), regular training seems to have more cardio benefits as well as neuromuscular benefits.

                             

                            For senior citizens, I'm thinking it's important not to neglect muscle strength - even during the base. I do recognize that Maffetone has other stuff beyond base, but when I was working, I seldom got beyond base because of field work in summer. Winter was running on snow.

                             

                            (The Lydiard pgm I'm using now might be a bit too aggressive, but it's providing some different workouts than I normally do - definitely not LHR.)

                            "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

                              Thanks. My question was really a baited question to see if  the person that suggested LHRT could actually explain the benefits rather than just pointing to the long FAQ's.

                               

                               

                              I saw right through the bait question and my comment was not meant for you, but for the OP who was looking into starting some type of LHR training. I was simply trying to give the OP another possible training method, something that is much easier to follow and understand to someone that is new to LHR training.

                               

                              I use LHR training myself and have used Maffetone primarily. For me my MAF HR is 140 without any adjustments besides keeping the same number for the last two years as I have not had any regression in MAF tests. By Dr. Maffetones guidelines, I could add another 5 for continuous and injury free running for the last two years. My 75% MaxHR (202x0.75) is 152 and 75% HRR ((202-48)x0.75)+48 is 163. My LT is around 178 using a 1 hr race. My MaxHR is obviously not via any formula, but instead from actual HR recordings during a race. If I workout near those HR's, it seems my body can not take the pounding. When I run my easy workouts near to slightly above MAF and my recovery workouts below MAF, I can get more miles and time on my feet without inducing too much stress.

                               

                              The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                               

                              2014 Goals:

                               

                              Stay healthy

                              Enjoy life

                               

                              RadarLuv


                                Thanks for the great information! 

                                 

                                I going to try training at the MAF for a while.  My concern was training too hard, and I'm sure this will be slow enough.