Forums >Running 101>Heart Rate Math Question
Lateralus Black then white are all i see in my infancy.red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. lets me see.as below, so above and beyond, I imaginedrawn beyond the lines of reason.Push the envelope. Watch it bend.Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I mustFeed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.Black then white are all i see in my infancy.red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. lets me see there is so much more andbeckons me to look thru to these infinite possibilities.as below, so above and beyond, I imaginedrawn outside the lines of reason.Push the envelope. Watch it bend.over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.Withering my intuition leaving opportunities behind.Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.Reaching out to embrace the random. Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.I embrace my desire toI embrace my desire tofeel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widowto feel inspired to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral to swing on the spiral to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.With my feet upon the ground I move myself between the sounds and open wide to suck it in. I feel it move across my skin. I'm reaching up and reaching out. I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.what ever will bewilder me.And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.Spiral out. Keep going.Spiral out. Keep going.Spiral out. Keep going.Spiral out. Keep going.Spiral out. Keep going.
Lateralus
The level of hijacking here has hit levels of beauty that make me all verklempt.
Good Bad & The Monkey
These formulas can be useful for people who have no idea what "easy" is supposed to be. My only point is that an HR of 137 is going to feel like a pretty different effort from 152.
Indeed.
But which is the right number? And is that number right for every run, or can the number vary?
A mathmatical formula will not answer that question. Only self-awareness across a number of factors that expose effort will be useful.
I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.
Poor baby
Indeed. But which is the right number? And is that number right for every run, or can the number vary? A mathmatical formula will not answer that question. Only self-awareness across a number of factors that expose effort will be useful.
You know, I've actually come around to agreeing with your original point that I first responded to. I do think that there's a value in giving beginners some kind of place to start for "easy" effort, but I doubt that it really matters which formula they choose. Start at 137 and adjust from there, or start at 152 and adjust from there; doesn't really matter. Any widely disseminated rule of thumb will probably get them in the right ballpark. One caveat to this might be that if they start on the high side of easy (e.g., 152 in our example), they might be less inclined to back off than they would be to ramp up from the lower HR. People seem to not want to wimp out on intensity -- they seem to be much more inclined to wimp out on frequency/quantity.
Why is it sideways?
Maybe it's just trying to find the boundaries between easy and not-easy. How do you explain to someone where the boundary between red and purple is? You and I know where easy is when we see it, some people need to look at a few more crayons before they know.
This thread pisses me off because people are putting words in my mouth.
I made (and continue to make) two points:
1) You don't need a lot of math to know or explain what easy pace is. A heart rate monitor and a number around 130 or 140 is useful if you don't understand "easy" for some reason. I have said this in every post.
2) The physiology behind MAF is wrong, and the physiological justification is unnecessary.
People are painting me as some crazy zen master. All I'm saying is that MAF has a lot right. But it overcomplicates.
Thanks JPF
This thread pisses me off because people are putting words in my mouth. I made (and continue to make) two points: 1) You don't need a lot of math to know or explain what easy pace is. A heart rate monitor and a number around 130 or 140 is useful if you don't understand "easy" for some reason. I have said this in every post. 2) The physiology behind MAF is wrong, and the physiological justification is unnecessary. People are painting me as some crazy zen master. All I'm saying is that MAF has a lot right. But it overcomplicates.
I hadn't intended to put words in your mouth, and was even attempting to agree with you. My point was to simply say that some just need guidance as to where to begin looking for 'easy'.
Also. I was talking about crayons. Not paint.
Off topic, but why is the method affectionately abbreviated"MAF?" Wouldn't be "Maf''s method," or "Maf" or "MM?"
"If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus
I hadn't intended to put words in your mouth, and was even attempting to agree with you. My point was to simply say that some just need guidance as to where to begin looking for 'easy'. Also. I was talking about crayons. Not paint.
Okay, my bad. I need to read people's intentions more fairly.
Clearly it's you're bad. You should have known that I didn't know that you couldn't read my mind through the internets. Or something?
Maybe I'm just a complete idiot, but I was one of the beginners who ran way to fast and had no clue what run easy meant. I hurt everyday and thought that maybe everyone felt this way but where just better at sucking it up then I was. I was a football player, wrestler and weight lifter so "no pain no gain" was my credo.
LHR training, Maffetone specifically, allowed me to learn what easy was and that still took a lot of convincing to set me ego aside. It was really hard to slow down and try to run at a 14:00 min mile, but that's where I was. The MAF HR allowed me to start getting more time on my feet and out on the road.
Here are some MAF tests that I performed along the way and I think it shows a nice improvement in aerobic speed.
10/01/09.....5 miles.....140 HR.....12:46 ave pace
10/29/09.....5 miles.....140 HR.....12:28 ave pace
12/10/09.....4 miles.....140 HR.....11:35 ave pace
02/23/10.....5 miles.....140 HR.....10:55 ave pace
04/30/10.....4 miles.....139 HR.....10:20 ave pace
05/20/10.....5 miles.....140 HR.....10:40 ave pace
02/01/11.....5 miles.....138 HR.....9:42 ave pace
Now I'm not going to swear that MAF got me here, but it did keep me running and helps to keep my ego in check. I'm to the point where I don't necessarily need the HR monitor to run, but it is still useful to see my HR and have it correlate to what I feel is my perceived effort. I'm doing a round of Pfitz marathon training right now and will go back to a MAF base phase when I'm done with Pfitz before I start another fall plan.
Flame away.
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
2014 Goals:
Stay healthy
Enjoy life
Because MM is a reserved term.
MAF stands for Maffetone As Fact.
Maximum Aerobic Function
To be fair you did say, "What's hard about running easy is not knowing what it feels like to run easy." I think just devin and I were raising a legitimate challenge to this assertion. That's when we got into the "red" thing. It is possible that you are right, but it is not self-evident.
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AFAICT with HR stuff, it is this great, purportedly simple, way to provide help if you want help finding "easy" pace. (Or "slow", depending where you believe the secret is.)
But, then these details of different systems appear, and one encounters fairly plausible-sounding criticisms of the 220-Age magic formula, and the simplicity begins to be occluded. So it lost me.
I keep thinking one day I'll do some HR measurements, because just measuring them shouldn't be impacted by questions as to how accurate different formulae are, and hey, looking at the numbers sounds fun. Plus then I can reevaluate different formulas with some useful anecdotal data. But then I never get around to it.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
Your answer mo bettah than my nonanswer.