These vegans are scaring me... (Read 1069 times)

My daughter swore off meat last night and I told her I would join her knowing it would pass in a couple of days adn I am not that big a meat eater. She loves sweet and sour chicken and I think sweet and sour tofu won't cut it.

Be careful - thats what my parents thought....13 or so years ago. I dont consider myself vegetarian, I just dont eat meat. Why take perfectly good sweet and sour sauce and tofu and waste it on a grainy, weirdly textured poultry product? I really think eating meat is a habit. I tried to put it back in my diet and man it just tastes awful. (Except rare steak.....gotta love the steak-loving non-meat eater.) I dated a guy for almost 4 years, and after we broke up, he said he ate meat like once a month because he just wasnt used to cooking or ordering it. (Note - I never asked or wanted him not to eat meat in general or around me. I just didnt want to eat it.....)

(Except rare steak.....gotta love the steak-loving non-meat eater.) )

My brother is the only vegetarian I know who eats bacon and lasagne!

This isn't about vegans or vegetarians so much as it is about fanatics. Fanatics of all ilk--whether their cause be religion, nutrition, a political world view, their particular brand of sport-- are annoying at best, dangerous at worst, and should be marginalized.

Warning: philosopher mode activated.

There is no true ethical meal.

Well said, Trent. Perhaps there is no true ethical meal, but certainly some meals are more ethical than others. Part of what it means to not be a fanatic is to be able to live life on the slippery slope without sliding into extreme views that may be logically consistent, but whose actual consequences for life are bad. The definition of a fanatic is someone whose beliefs override his capacities to weigh the outcomes of his decisions. For the fanatic, a belief is an excuse not to critically inquire into the consequences of action. I prefer to think of a belief as a hypothesis for testing in experience. If the consequences of a belief turn out to be bad, then we have to go back to the drawing board and revise the way we think about the world. We have the habit of evaluating our beliefs in terms of the criteria of consistency--"I always do____." "I never do _____."--as if acting the same way in every circumstance were the point of life. Being intelligent means being able to adapt your beliefs in the face of feedback from the environment (this is what people mean when they tell runners to listen to your body). It turns out (for a variety of institutional and historical reasons) that many of our eating habits don't lead to the good life, but to obesity, various environmental problems, high medical costs, etc. The ethical thing to do is to seek to modify those habits in small ways so that they lead to good outcomes--to better lives for us and our communities.

"But reporting high levels of beef consumption was linked with lower sperm counts in the grown sons of the women, up to 24.3% lower in sons of women who ate more than seven servings of beef a week." Even at only 4oz/serving that's a LOT of beef! I'll bet I ate half that on a heavy-beef week. I think what I ate the most of while pregnant was Arby's Chicken Cordon Bleu sammiches, LOL. At least during the first trimester...it's about the only thing that didn't make me queasy (didn't really have morning sickness, but had very little appetite those early months). k

It's turning into a regular hippie convention in here. A man could make himself a killing opening up a tie-dyed t-shirt shop. Just stay away from the brown acid, okay, kids? Question: should hippies be housed in communes, or are free range hippies more ethical? Discuss amongst yourselves. I have to go buy an SUV. My current mode of transport is way too fuel efficient. I absolute love this post quoted below, by the way. Was that final line a typo ... or on purpose? Either way, it's funny. Well said:

Now, I seem to be surrounded by vegetarians. I don't think any of them are vegans though, so I will just go with what I know. There seem to be two types of vegetarians. Those like my sister, who only do it because they think they are being some sort of martyr protecting the cows (they wouldn't even be alive if they weren't going to get eaten, there stupid, no really, they are). Then, there are others, who don't make a big deal about it and if we argue, its only to tease each other about our different lifestyles. I don't like meat martyrs. Meat is yummy. I haven't found any kind that I don't like. But, I won't try snail. Women especially need red meat, and I'm a woman so I take advantage of the fact (especially since I tend to have low iron anyway). I know you can get iron elsewhere, but red meat just does it so nicely, especially when cooked right. So, the moral: If you don't like meat, fine, but don't shove it down my throat that the animals we eat have it so hard and I won't shove it down your throat that there are far easier/more efficient ways to meat your nutritional needs.

Do meat martyrs have meatings?

Oh no, read what I said. In essence, I am almost advocating hunting for all your meat. Go out and kill a wild boar living the way God intended, rooting in the mud and eating acorns. Cook it over a fire that is burning the wood you chopped down yourself. Live like a caveman. A caveman with a gun. That is a far more sustainable way to live than that corn-fed (boy, almost sounds healthy, eh) meat-crap they serve at McDonalds.

You're a closet hippie. Give it up. You're not fooling me. Jeff's rubbing off on you. Now I gotta go find a wild boar. Great. All I really wanted was a Big Mac. Do we have wild boar around here? I wonder if I could shoot a monkey. They seem meaty. Maybe I'll just have the acorns. Do they serve them at McDonald's? Oh - and no fire for you, caveman. That irresponsible behavior releases carbon into that atmosphere, and that's almost as deadly as running. Shiver, hippie # 2. Shiver. Cold tofu for you. And some kosher acorns. But they're free range acorns. Wanna go boar hunting later? Maybe we could get Jeff to chase them. He's fast.

Female beef eater? Consider this http://www.thatsfit.com/2007/03/28/female-beef-eater-consider-this/ http://www.thatsfit.com/2007/03/28/beef-consumption-in-women-linked-to-lower-sperm-count-in-sons/

Sure. But while you're considering it, actually consider it. As in, what it actually says, and the actual facts, as opposed to what your first link up there claims the research says. I followed the links and did my own considering: Worst case: a 24.3% lower sperm count in your sons. Maybe. If you absolutely gorge yourself on beef, while you’re pregnant. Maybe. But this "study" (cough) is based solely on self-reporting; not a shred of medical data. Just an apparent correlation between self-reported dietary habits and lowered sperm counts in sons, without any attempt to 1) verify the self-reporting, or 2) actually consider the billion other possible variables. And then it gets funnier: this correlation - assuming the self-reporting is somewhere close to accurate - only appears among women who eat beef SEVEN or more times a week. If you're eating beef SEVEN frickin' times a week, you've got more to worry about than your son's sperm. Like needing a root canal in your colon. Also - none of the big beefy sons of beef-loving cow-hating moms were infertile, by the way. Not one. Just the opposite. They'd all gotten their mates pregnant. Ironic, isn't it? Which could suggest an alternate conclusion: eat lots of beef while you’re pregnant, and your son is going to be quite the stud (literally) – even with less sperm! Nice. More efficient sperm! Where's that cheeseburger? Wait - it gets even better. Remember that "self reporting" bit? Any study based solely on self-reporting is potentially fatally flawed, of course - but this wasn't even that accurate. Know how they actually got their data? You ain't gonna believe this silliness: "For this study, the first to look at beef consumption and semen quality, researchers analyzed semen samples and questionnaires from 387 male partners of pregnant women. The men, born between 1949 and 1983, had reported (with the mothers' input, if possible) on their own mothers' diet during pregnancy." You read that right. The whole study is based on asking men what their mothers ate, when they were pregnant. With the men in question. Decades ago. "With the mothers' input, if possible." Jesus wept. I can’t remember what I had for breakfast, and you’re asking me what my mother ate for lunch on a Tuesday in April of 1969? And basing your “study” on my answers? Awesome. Good times. For the record, I do remember my Mom stuffing her face with some bad burritos right about the time Golda Meir became Prime Minister of Israel (it was a slow news day, if I remember right), and it frankly didn’t agree with me. But they were chicken burritos, so that’s probably covered in another study. Okay, so once you're through laughing (or crying) about where they got their “data,” make sure you consider the "researchers" own comments, too. Their advice is good, and goes a little beyond “beef = no sperm = bad!”:

"But expectant mothers and others should weigh the findings judiciously against other evidence, the researchers added. "We're not saying that people should stop eating beef, and it's particularly important in pregnancy that women get enough protein," said study lead author Shanna Swan, associate chairwoman for research and professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Rochester (N.Y.) School of Medicine and Dentistry. "Women have to eat protein, although they don't necessarily have to eat meat," she said. "If women want to take action, they could try hormone-free beef or organic beef, although it's not proven, or reduce their consumption of beef or find some other protein."

----------------------------------------------------------------- Last thing you should do, while you're considering the above: find out who financed this "research." I'll bet a Quarter Pounder w/Cheese that the answer to that particular question would be ... interesting. I love this thread. Not only did I learn that running will kill me any day now, I've also discovered that I'm an unethical, intolerant, unhealthy, mindless killing machine burdened by slow decomposing waste and weak, flabby sperm. Awesome. Where's that boar I gotta kill?