RunningAHEAD - Topic: Should I see a cardiologist

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Should I see a cardiologist - problems with LHR training?? (Read 1215 times)

bka1

posted: 2/1/2008 at 8:57 PM

Hi all - I am so glad I found this site!! The old coolrunning site seems to have evaporated. This is for the low heart rate trainers.

My MAF is 134 and I began LHR training last November after the MCM. I'm doing 40-50 MPW.

My first MAF test was:

Pace Avg HR Max HR
10:04 131 138
10:55 128 135
11:03 127 139
10:50 119 137
11:07 122 149 (there is an incline in my course and HR shoots up before I know it, but I slow down)

I thought this was a pretty good start. I continued the training and was able to reach a low 9:00 min pace a few times but usually hovered around the 10:00-10:30 range. My next MAF test a month later was (same course):

Pace Avg HR Max HR
9:56 131 138
10:27 132 136
10:26 132 137
10:55 131 136
10:57 132 138

I was mildly disappointed because a) the weather was so much nicer this time (I was battling a cold north wind last time) and b) my HR had increased for pretty much the same pace. Since then, this disturbing trend has continued - I'm getting slower and slower for my given MAF. My last three runs point this out:

Pace Avg HR Max HR
11:19 129 138
11:48 130 135
12:22 130 139
12:35 130 135
12:50 131 136
13:07 131 136

Pace Avg HR Max HR
10:47 127 134
11:17 132 138
11:46 135 139 (at this point I was so ticked off that I began ignoring my HRM) Angry

11:23 134 139
11:48 137 142
11:34 140 146
11:30 142 147
11:13 146 154

Pace Avg HR Max HR
11:16 122 129
10:32 127 132
10:31 130 141 (I had to walk several times)
10:32 130 136 (I had to walk several times)
10:54 131 135 (I quit "running" and walked home in disgust) Cry

I feel great and I have no injuries - I don't know what is going on and it is very frustrating!!! At this rate, I'll be blowing through my MAF lounging in the EZ Boy while changing channels on the the remote. Has anyone else had such a drastic loss of fitness? I so much wanted this method to work - it just makes so much sense to me Confused

I'm hoping this is a momentary glitch indicating that I transitioning from a carb burner to a fat burner. Any comments or similar anecdotes would be appreciated.

Dustin

view log

formerly RacingThoughts

posted: 2/1/2008 at 9:11 PM
modified: 2/1/2008 at 9:15 PM

You don't need to see a cardiologist. Your numbers look much better than mine did when I gave low HR training a shot. I was "running" 14-15 minute miles back when I tried MAF training. I quit that and started running by feel, now I can run 10 minute miles and average lower than my MAF HR most of the time. This could have something to do with the weather also, as it was much hotter back in May when I started, but I have definitely improved by just getting out there and running and not worrying about my HR.

ʇuǝɹʇ view log ʎǝʞuoɯ ʎʞunɟ	posted: 2/1/2008 at 9:32 PM
	huh
	noʎ ɥʇıʍ ǝq ʎǝʞuoɯ ǝɥʇ ʎɐɯ

Lank view log	posted: 2/1/2008 at 10:55 PM modified: 2/1/2008 at 10:55 PM
	I think your shockers are jammed or you're breathing out of the wrong eyelids. Of course it could be the flux capacitor which can be solved with a case of Penzoil.....no....make that Quaker State. (The references are pretty easy but +1 to anyone that can place all three).
	"Good-looking people have no spine. Their art never lasts. They get the girls, but we're smarter." - Lester Bangs

fxdgear	posted: 2/1/2008 at 10:55 PM
	There is a lhr/maff users group here...might want to visit there

obsessor view log hop	posted: 2/1/2008 at 11:11 PM
	Maybe you should ditch the HRM and the watch and run easy on easy days, hard on hard days, and take off when you feel ill. Races and TT's indicate fitness. That's it. (if you are training to race. If you are training to maintain a HR of 122.6 for 3.53 hours or somesuch, carry on, sir.)
	"Men, today we die a little." Emil Zatopek at the start of the Olympic Marathon

PowerOfQ view log Line of Eld	posted: 2/2/2008 at 3:04 PM
	Quote from Lank on 2/1/2008 at 10:55 PM: I think your shockers are jammed or you're breathing out of the wrong eyelids. Of course it could be the flux capacitor which can be solved with a case of Penzoil.....no....make that Quaker State. (The references are pretty easy but +1 to anyone that can place all three). grrr, can't get the first one, but number 2 is Bull Durham, and number 3 is Back to the Future... pondering first ref
	The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

slowgino

view log

posted: 2/3/2008 at 6:06 AM

Quote from bka1 on 2/1/2008 at 8:57 PM:

.
My MAF is 134 and I began LHR training last November after the MCM. I'm doing 40-50 MPW.
...
I feel great and I have no injuries - I don't know what is going on and it is very frustrating!!!
...
I'm hoping this is a momentary glitch indicating that I transitioning from a carb burner to a fat burner. Any comments or similar anecdotes would be appreciated.

First of all, go to "User Groups", find the LHR Training group and sign up to that. Lots more detailed feedback there re your MAF test results and training, etc.

Second, you say your MAF is 134... does that mean you're 46? If so, you might be interested in this:
I got a brief look at the results from between 50 and 100 VO2 tests of runners (and some were cyclists). I don't have the complete RQ (RER) vs HR for each, but I do have the "Aerobic Threshold" (AeT) which has some relationship to Maffetone's "deflection point" for the MAF. What's interesting is the variability.

The AeT values for the 12 people aged 44 to 48 range from 94 to 138. Four are between 110 and 120, four in the 120s, etc...
The bottom line is that a number of these folks could not depend on the "180 formula" to tell them where their training HR should be. I must admit that I'm a skeptic when it comes to all the formulas. You can find some true believers over on the user group. Check it out.

P.S. the 180 formula doesn't work for me... I'm outside the age parameters anyway... I just use my VO2 test results, and that works great for maximum training of the fat metabolism.

Gino

jdmcgregor view log Hello Portland!	posted: 2/3/2008 at 6:48 AM
	Quote from ʇuǝɹʇ on 2/1/2008 at 9:32 PM: huh That reminded me of: "Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the VC on the QT cause if it leaks in the VC the VP could end up an MIA and then we'd all be put on KP."
	Ah, there's nothing more exciting than science. You get all the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention...Science has it all. -Skinner

JakeKnight view log	posted: 2/3/2008 at 1:51 PM
	Quote from jdmcgregor on 2/3/2008 at 6:48 AM: That reminded me of: "Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the VC on the QT cause if it leaks in the VC the VP could end up an MIA and then we'd all be put on KP." RIP, Bruno Kirby.
	E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com -----------------------------

Lank view log	posted: 2/3/2008 at 3:23 PM
	Quote from PowerOfQ on 2/2/2008 at 3:04 PM: grrr, can't get the first one, but number 2 is Bull Durham, and number 3 is Back to the Future... pondering first ref Very nice effort. Shockers are jammed and breathing out of eyelids was from Bull Durham. Flux capacitor was from Back to the Future (I thought that was the toughest). Penzoil....no....make that Quaker State was from Fletch.
	"Good-looking people have no spine. Their art never lasts. They get the girls, but we're smarter." - Lester Bangs

Anelope

posted: 3/2/2008 at 5:05 AM

Yeah I had similar issues. My 5k went from 18:53 to 20:08. Marathon from 3:28 to a 3:50. Did you ever hear the expression that slow running makes a slow runner? Well it's the truth for some folks. For some running at low HR's isn't enough of a stimulas to see aerobic growth. Thats the very reason you don't get fit from walking(to a certain point). Your body adapts to the training you give it and for some(like myself) you need a varation to get that stimulas. Most people who try MAFF see results because they increase their mileage. Thats where the stimulas comes into play. Doing runs even extreamly slow for long times(2+hours)will fatigue your slow twitch muscle fibers and yor fast twitch come into play. So your still doing speedwork in a round about way. What most people don't understand is even if they did that without a HRM the same thing would have happened. I have been at my most fit and raced myt best with keeping a balance of different running. Easy runs, long runs, tempo's, hills etc.. Runnes ran just fine for years without a heart rate monitor. I ran just fine without one. They are a great tool in guiding a lot of folks in their efforts and in most cases lead to improvment. Thats great but for folks such as yourself you might want to consider something else. What lead you to try

Ennay view log Bif! Bam! Pow!	posted: 3/2/2008 at 5:56 AM
	I had that happen when I tried MAF training. My MAF pace was 11 no make that 12 no make that 13 no take this HRM and shove %$$^&&*%$#. Oh. I was pregnant. Ran through my pregnancy at whatever heartrate I darned well felt like and came out the other side about a minute per mile faster at the same heart rate as before. My advice is get pregnant.
	Beware the Pink Boxing Gloves of DOOM! "It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds" - Captain Hammer 2009 Goals New PR's in 5K 10K HM M I failed the 12 minute run in 11th grade...

chrimbler view log	posted: 3/2/2008 at 4:20 PM
	Sorry to hijack but I went for a run in the cold today and my nose began to run...should I go see my Ears, Nose and Throat guy?? Did I make my point??
	Run like you stole it!

Tchuck	posted: 3/2/2008 at 6:48 PM
	BKA, Are your race times in line? What are your 5K, 10K, half times with same fitness???? It may be possible you don't need MAF training. Generally it is an ok approach if coming back from injury, beginner, race times not in line because of aerobic base weakness....... I always experiment with plans and for me, it didn't work either and I regressed a bit. BUt, I am have a 20 yr aerobic base. I personally think it is fine to run slower most of time and mix in striders, aerobic Fartleks, tempos/slow tempos etc. These can be done year round (less volume in off season) without hurting base if you do them correctly.
	Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

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