Forums >Running 101>Repeated injuries - thinking of getting Vibrams/minimalist shoes
Latent Runner
I think you're on to something here. People with ankle and knee troubles are advised to run on dirt or grass because it's softer, but I think it's not the reduced hardness of the surface, but the variety of landing and takeoff angles that improves the conditioning of the feet, and ultimately eases stress on other joints.
Thanks!
I'm inclined to believe it is both the softness and the variety, but that's just my somewhat educated opinion at this point. Then there is one trail I used to run on almost daily; during the summer months the ATVs and dirt bikes keep the surface so well, uhhh, "groomed" (for lack of a better term), that it is *almost* like running on a sandy beach. Impact is minimal, however, the work required by the muscles to slog through the soft stuff is significant.
Four years ago I was typically running six to eight miles every-other-day on the trail I mentioned above; I then signed up for the 2009 Dallas Turkey Trot, which also happens to be eight miles. In perparation for the race (my first race of any kind in a decade), I wanted to kind of figure out how fast I could do the distance, so I took two days off, and then went out and ran the eight mile loop on a cool day as hard as I possibly could. My final time was 1:21 and change; a week later I ran the Turkey Trot and finished in 1:10 and change. Yeah, running on soft dirt is a heck of a workout.
Fat old man PRs:
Feeling the growl again
Two different things -- impact vs variety in surface strengthening things -- and both valid IMHO.
When recommending to someone with ankle/knee problems to run on trails, it's important to first find out what their issues are. Sometimes those variations that help most of us strengthen could be a liability to the injury-prone. I ran with a guy in college who lost most of a season because he had a weak ankle and, invariably, he'd just be getting back into things and roll it again on a trail run and be back to square one. Since the team did almost all trail running, he ended up by himself on the roads for a couple months until it fully healed.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
Biomimeticist
he had a weak ankle.
An ankle isn't weak, if it fails to maintain balance for the athlete, its a training issue, not joint strength one...
Experts said the world is flat
Experts said that man would never fly
Experts said we'd never go to the moon
Name me one of those "experts"...
History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong
thank you for your explanation of solidity vs denseness. The point I was trying to make is that I believe that concrete has similar properties to many found in nature that one would have learned to run upon. Please provide data to back up your claim that "even hard-packed dirt absorbs many orders of magnitude more shock than does concrete. "
I've been thinking about this for a bit, and it seems that no words are capable of convincing you that concrete is harder than hard packed dirt. That said, there is a very easy way to prove it to yourself:
What the above will prove to you (or at least your hand and arm), even if you never admit it to the rest of us, is that hard-packed dirt is a hell of a lot softer and absorbs a hell of a lot more shock than even the softest concrete you can find.
hard-packed dirt is a hell of a lot softer and absorgs a hell of a lot more shock than even the softest concrete you can find.
And that's my point; We have a symbiotic relationship with the ground and the earth around us, not concrete. And its the concrete which makes the interaction unnatural. No shoe will ever replace natural earth interaction. I was once told that it was the goal of the shoe industry
I tell the story that the most popular line used in modern single ads is, "likes to take walks on the beach". It was with that reality, that I was once told that it was the goal of the shoe industry in reaction to the harshness of the concrete world to hope in attaining a modern version of mini sandboxes for your feet.
From my perspective, I would love it if such a "mini sandbox" shoe could be created, errr, assuming they didn't weight four or five pounds per shoe.
So that was my goal, to create a running technique specifically for concrete.
The source of most running injuries is from the impact force of your body hitting the ground. So therefore the technique goal would be to figure out how to run with minimal ground impact forces.
So to do that I started with athletes who walk and run with the lowest impact forces. That's why I studied cats; for their stalking skills.
Which is why in this video the runner can run utilizing cat based running mechanics and do so with much lower impact sound on the treadmill deck
http://www.youtube.com/user/SportJester1?feature=mhw5#p/u/5/qexXefs3F_s
Find a hammer
When discussions of surface hardness in relation to running comes up, my inner geek cries a little bit when someone mentions hammers.
Thanks for the work on the video and the link; I cannot view it here at work, but I will definitely have a look-see tonight and report back with my observations.
Thanks again.
I don't know about you, but I'm a geek both inside and out.
Thanks for the work on the video and the link; I cannot view it here at work, but I will definitely have a look-see tonight and report back with my observations. Thanks again.
That's what's referenced in this story about me. That I can even teach a football lineman how to lower their running impact force, then anyone else is easy in comparison
"Under Ty Geiser's football-seasoned legs and pounding bare feet, the treadmill machine at Domination Fitness lurches and shudders like a ship's mast in a typhoon.
When Geiser's trainer, Robert Vervloet, asks his client to abandon his regular gait and consciously place one foot directly in front of the other while he jogs, the violent jarring diminishes dramatically. A hand placed on the treadmill frame picks up little more than a steady, rhythmic vibration."
http://portlandtribune.com/bvt/15-news/18837-on-the-move
then your geekness should undertand that our feet are not hammers
That's what's referenced in this story about me. That I can even teach a football lineman how to lower their running impact force, then anyone else is easy in comparison "Under Ty Geiser's football-seasoned legs and pounding bare feet, the treadmill machine at Domination Fitness lurches and shudders like a ship's mast in a typhoon. When Geiser's trainer, Robert Vervloet, asks his client to abandon his regular gait and consciously place one foot directly in front of the other while he jogs, the violent jarring diminishes dramatically. A hand placed on the treadmill frame picks up little more than a steady, rhythmic vibration." http://portlandtribune.com/bvt/15-news/18837-on-the-move
Interesting article. Funny thing, on the smoother parts of my trails I often find myself naturally running with one foot placed directly in front of the previous, however, the irregular nature of the trails I run on make such smooth and easy striding difficult to sustain. I've often wondered about the benefits/drawbacks of how I run when I'm on smooth dirt, I'll focus on it a little more during tonight's run (which will happen before I'm able to view the video).
Nor did I intend to suggest they were. The point I was trying (and probably failing) to make is that anything which impacts hard-packed dirt will be met with less resistance and experience less shock than if that same thing impacted concrete. To tell the truth, I was going to suggest to our obstinate one that he use his head instead.
That's the technique conundrum, landing inline is what's easiest in terms of surface interaction, but difficult to do physically.
The masking tape exercise teaches how to do it.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/running/evolution-of-learning-how-to-run-distance