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| 20 miler in marathon training -- what's your take? (Read 727 times) |
| view log "berry" happy |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:07 AM |
| Quote from willamona on 5/8/2008 at 12:40 AM: I believe that 2 or 3 long runs should last as long time wise as it will take you to run the full marathon. I believe this to be very much needed for the first marathon and not really so important for the following marathons. For the first marathon, you should be prepared to run for a long time. I don't recall how long my longest run was before my first marathon, but I think it might have been greater than 5 hours. I was a sub-5 hour finisher my first try and I was mentally prepared for that situation. Now, after you have done the distance once, maybe the time issue is not so important, but that first time is a bitch. Now, after you try one marathon to finish, we can worry about how to fix tired legs late in a race. Oh, and this assumes that the person in question is like I was for my first marathon, not out to win, not even very good, just there to get it done and see if it can be done by someone like myself at the time.
Not how far out should the last of these longest runs be? That one totally depends on how long you have been running and how much recovery time is needed. If you never stopped running after HS/college the answer will be much different than someone like me who took nearly a decade off from running competitively. The answer will also differ if you are a seasonal or single goal runner bound to hit a goal and then take weeks or even months off at a time.
Meh. Did that answer anything or just add to the confusion?
No, I think that made a lot of sense, actually--especially the part about running for as long as I'd expect the race to take. If I were to do a 22 miler as my longest training run it probably would take at least 4-4.5 hours. I'm sort of guessing based upon my history and PRs in the HM that I'd be looking at ~4.5 hours for the whole shebang.
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Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• Make it to 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
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posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:16 AM |
I've never done a training run that took as long as the marathon I was training for. Not that I couldn't probably benefit by doing so at this point but I just thought I'd point out that it is not at all necessary to do so in order to sucessfully complete a marathon.
4.5 hour training runs just seem crazy to me. But that's just me.
zz, you could complete a marathon right now without hurting yourself too badly. The rest of this is just convincing yourself you can. |
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| view log "berry" happy |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:26 AM |
| Quote from mikeymike on 5/8/2008 at 1:16 AM: zz, you could complete a marathon right now without hurting yourself too badly. The rest of this is just convincing yourself you can.
Oh, I know I could...I just want it to be less miserable with more and better training, KWIM? Yeah, ultimately I want simply to finish this first one, but my secondary goal is to finish strong, not gutting it out and in misery for any longer than is reasonable. |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• Make it to 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
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| view log Hawt and sexy |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:47 AM |
5:26:39 Wow. There we go, my longest long run ever. Time wise anyway. How far? 20.2 miles, on 9/17/2006.
Just for comparison, my next longest training run time wise was me pacing a friend to a PR in a marathon (MCM '07) with a chip time of 4:52 x. The gun time was something like 5:08.
Yeah, I'm crazy. |
| All your base are belong to us. |
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| view log Negative Creep |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:50 AM |
| Quote from willamona on 5/8/2008 at 1:47 AM: 5:26:39 Wow. There we go, my longest long run ever. Time wise anyway. How far? 20.2 miles, on 9/17/2006.
Yeah, I'm crazy.
Running for 5.5 hours is not normal.
Crazy? Confirmed. |
| The Gaijin Samurai. a.k.a The attorney dissin' attorney.
Read and Listen
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| view log AtmBomb of Contemplation |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 4:54 AM
modified: 5/8/2008 at 4:55 AM |
| Quote from DJ Marcus on 5/8/2008 at 1:50 AM: Running for 5.5 hours is not normal.
So, now we're trying for normal? 
Longest run to date?...little over 32 1/2 hours, more than 20 miles.
there was snow. it was pretty. the hallucinations were nice
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| "I run in the path of your commands for you have set my heart free." Ps 119:32 |
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| view log |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 5:01 AM
modified: 5/8/2008 at 5:04 AM |
| Quote from JakeKnight on 5/7/2008 at 8:54 PM: Interesting stuff.
I know tapering more than 7-10 days does nothing for me. I'm very curious about the rest of their ideas. I think I'll try this in the fall, with a few minor modifications. Thanks, Bell.
"Think of tapering as relative to the type and amount of training you have done. If you have pushed the limits of volume and duration of your runs, you will need a longer tapering phase. If you are putting in 100-mile training weeks, your legs might be thrashed after several weeks of it. Therefore, tapering for 3-5 weeks might be necessary for you to race a marathon well. On the other hand, if you choose to be more conservative and run 70-80 miles per week, your legs might be considerably more fresh. In such a case, a long taper will not be necessary at all.
Your muscle fiber types also determines how long you must taper. People who are naturally endurance oriented and not speedy will need short tapering phases. I have observed that slow twitch runners tend to lose aerobic endurance quickly upon cessation of mileage and suffer greatly in races when they taper too soon and too much. At the other end of the continuum, runners who are speedy tend to retain aerobic endurance more easily, so they can afford to taper longer. Most runners are somewhere in between these two extremes. However, no matter what you do, remember, if you are not tired, sore, and beat up, you don’t need to taper much.
Tinman"
Long tapers don't work for me either. I've never been tested but am almost sure I have more slow twitch fibers than fast. I suspect that there are many runners who frequent these forums who overdo tapering--not just for the marathon, but for all race distances.
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Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:02, 10k 38:35, HM 1:26:33, 30k 2:06:26 |
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posted: 5/8/2008 at 12:23 PM
modified: 5/8/2008 at 12:24 PM |
| A lot of good things have already been said. Personally, I like running long. If nothing else it gives me confidence. Plus, it trains my body to run when tired. Getting your legs to turn over when all you want to do is sit on the curb has almost everything to do with your head and nothing to do with the rest of your body (if trained properly). You come to that realization on your 20 mi runs, or at least I do. For that reason, I think they add value. That said, nothing has been more important than high mileage for me. Stringing together a few/serveral 50-60 mi weeks has infinitely more importance IMHO. There are really no short-cuts. If you don't put in the work a 20 mi run won't help. For the record I did 3x20 mi and 1x22 mi for my upcoming marathon. My long runs (typically Sat) were generally in the 17 mi range. I'll let you know it it works out for me. |
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| view log "berry" happy |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:14 PM |
Quote from jlynnbob on 5/8/2008 at 4:54 AM:So, now we're trying for normal?  Longest run to date?...little over 32 1/2 hours, more than 20 miles. there was snow. it was pretty. the hallucinations were nice
Normal is highly overrated, IMO.  |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• Make it to 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
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| view log "berry" happy |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:18 PM |
| Quote from Jim24315 on 5/8/2008 at 5:01 AM: However, no matter what you do, remember, if you are not tired, sore, and beat up, you don’t need to taper much.
Tinman"
Long tapers don't work for me either. I've never been tested but am almost sure I have more slow twitch fibers than fast. I suspect that there are many runners who frequent these forums who overdo tapering--not just for the marathon, but for all race distances.
That's something I will definitely keep in mind for future training. For the first one I'm going to more-or-less do the 3 week taper. But after that...? I know there are people who do well on 1-2 weeks. Granted, I think they are generally the high mileage speedy types. Any mid-packers here who have done lower mileage training (ie 50-60mpw peak, perhaps) and a shorter taper who can testify? |
Kirsten
• Ladies Locker Room •
.: 2008 Goals :.
• Get down to 123#s and STAY there!
• Run 1500 miles
• Make it to 1st marathon - Milwaukee Lakefront - in my home state of WI
• PRs: 5k ~ 15k ~ 25k |
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| view log Blaine Moore |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:43 PM |
| A 3 week taper won't cause you to lose much in the way of fitness as long as you do it properly. If you cut your mileage in half each week then that won't help, but if you run 90% the first week, 80% the second week, and then let yourself get some good rest the last week (with a good tempo workout each week including one 6-7 days before the marathon) then you should be fine. |
Run to Win
I just started using Twitter - anybody else on there? http://twitter.com/BlaineMoore
I am now officially an older guy. Don't believe me? Ask Teresa's DS15. |
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Scout7 view logCPT Curmudgeon |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:47 PM |
| Quote from zoom-zoom on 5/8/2008 at 1:18 PM: That's something I will definitely keep in mind for future training. For the first one I'm going to more-or-less do the 3 week taper. But after that...? I know there are people who do well on 1-2 weeks. Granted, I think they are generally the high mileage speedy types. Any mid-packers here who have done lower mileage training (ie 50-60mpw peak, perhaps) and a shorter taper who can testify?
I did one formal taper. That was for the first marathon.
The last two, I just sorta ran what I thought was appropriate. Mileage was a little lower, but I was running tempos and such. Both races I dropped my time. I think my "taper" for the last one was maybe a week or two? I dunno, I never formalized it. Heck, I did mile repeats three days before it. And I set a PR by almost 10 minutes from the one 5 weeks before. |
Amat victoria curam.
Sine labore nihil.
Dulcius ex asperis. |
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| view log Negative Creep |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 1:49 PM |
Quote from jlynnbob on 5/8/2008 at 4:54 AM:So, now we're trying for normal?  Longest run to date?...little over 32 1/2 hours, more than 20 miles.
The opposite of normal.  |
| The Gaijin Samurai. a.k.a The attorney dissin' attorney.
Read and Listen
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| view log |
posted: 5/8/2008 at 2:31 PM |
| Quote from Run To Win on 5/8/2008 at 1:43 PM: A 3 week taper won't cause you to lose much in the way of fitness as long as you do it properly. If you cut your mileage in half each week then that won't help, but if you run 90% the first week, 80% the second week, and then let yourself get some good rest the last week (with a good tempo workout each week including one 6-7 days before the marathon) then you should be fine.
I agree with this. Would you say that a 16miler, given proper traininng, 8 days before the race done at goal MP would be beneficial as the final temp workout you mention? Or is it too much?
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2008 Goals:
2000 miles for the year
100 mile week
Sub 3:10 marathon
Sub 19min 5K |
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