'We were bored and didn’t have anything to do, so we decided to kill somebody.' (Read 567 times)

PDoe


    "My opinion/feeling may shock others but I have sympathy to those killers. "

     

    Nope, sorry, no sympathy at all. Fry 'em. Waste of people's valuable time and resources to keep 'em around. An attitude of sympathy is part of the social problem you allude to. Along with the "no" list, you can add 'no self-accountability'. 

      I agree with your argument, but disagree with the end belief. I really hadn't intended to jump in, (and maybe shouldn't anyway), but here goes...

      I don't think I stated my end belief; was just noting a distinction between the 1st and 2nd amendment. I speculate sometimes that the 2nd amendment gets shaded by its proximity to the first amendment.

       

      I know that reasonable people disagree on guns, and I think I see both sides of the issue. I just wanted to say that the constitution itself is really (probably intentionally) vague on the issue, so I see attempts to ground an argument in the document as doomed to fail.

       

      I do agree that the founders were more interested at the time in protecting the citizenry from an overarmed federal government. I see the 2nd amendment as directly bearing on the military-industrial complex (as a good Republican president once called it) and having very little to do with citizen gun laws (beyond protecting an interest in ownership and balancing that with public safety.)


      Feeling the growl again

         

        This is a fine debate, but I don't like the gun vs car analogy.  It makes no sense to me.  Yes, guns are cars can both be dangerous, but nearly all Americans would agree that cars are necessary in modern American society.

         

        This is precisely why it is a good analogy.  It forces you to be willing to give up something you have to get the safety you desire.  Plenty of people are all too happy to give up rights they do not feel are personally important to them.

         

        And, large segments of our population would disagree on your assessment of the necessity of firearms in modern society.  You can argue the relative numbers, but in the end our Constitution were written in such a way as to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

           

          Well, you must not live in Georgia. Cool

          Back in Rhode Island in that Boston metro where I used to live, much easier to convince.

           

          You have to consider the probable outcomes of a ban on guns. Civil war is one. States succeeding again is another. An even worse police state than we already have is another. Or maybe everyone just gives them up peacefully, that's possible. But what reality is most probable? If you pay attention to discussions and to what people are saying, I believe it won't be a peaceful transition, and a lot more Americans will end up dead or in prison. I'm not willing to go there, since most of the people who own guns aren't criminals at heart. The underlying problems that I stated in my earlier post have to be the main focus. There will be opposition to social changes in those areas, but the outcomes I stated earlier in this paragraph wouldn't be highly probable.

           

          First of all guns will not be banned in the United States.  There is just no support for such a ban.  Most gun control activists are seeking various limitations, but not a ban.   That said, the only way guns could be banned is if there were widespread support for a ban. Congress would need to pass a constitutional amendment and 3/4 of the states would need to ratify it.  Such a process would take years.  If it happened, it would presumably occur because there was a major shift in public opinion, not just in New York in California, but in 3/4 of the nation's states.  This would improve the likeliness of peaceful transition in the unlikely event that guns are one day banned.

          2013 goals: 800m: 2:20 | mile: 4:59 | 5k: 18:59 | 10k: 39:59 | HM: 1:32 | Marathon: 3:20


          Feeling the growl again

            My opinion/feeling may shock others but I have sympathy to those killers. If we think deeply, it is not really a problem within them but the environment and influence they grow up. They are just the products of the social problems which we can not solve. Nobody chooses to grow up with a mental distortion and illness. Any kid becoming a troublemaker is due to either his/her parents' parenting problems, the education problems, or the growing environment problems such as being bullied in school, too much violence presented in TV/movies, false assured prides. They are raised with no self-esteem, no respect to others, no sympathy, no purpose, feeling shut down.

             

            The majority of the public agree to lock them up when they make troubles but it will never end. Prisons don't solve the social problems. We can lock 1 million, but we are keeping producing another million.

             

            Lots of people grow up in terrible places and turn out to be decent people; only a small number even in the inner city areas are capable of something like this.  Yes, they were dealt a bad hand in life and started with an impediment.  But that does NOT absolve them of personal accountability.  The problem may have started with their surroundings, but it sure is in them now.

             

            So three cold-blooded killers who thought it was OK to shoot some random person in the back for fun, and you don't want them to go to prison?  Do you really believe that someone like this can be fixed to be a productive, safe member of society?

             

            I knew someone all through growing up that was like these teenagers...seemingly no conscience or concern for others, in trouble from a young age.  He got all the help our church and the community could give him.  When he was 17 he got bored, skipped school, broke into a house, and killed the resident when she found him there.  I know a lawyer that spoke to him (in prison) a decade after the event, and he still shows no remorse.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

              Well, if it is nature, we don't even have the right to torture them in prison. We should help them. It is like people born with disability. The current system treating criminals like saying to the disable people if we consider them as a minority: OK, if you are disable, you should be killed or imprisoned. But we don't do that to the disable people, we spend money to create facilities for their convenience. You may argue that disable people don't violate others' rights. But if people keep arguing God gives rights, then nobody has any superior right. Again, back to my opinion, simply because the majority gain the power and create this punishment called LAW, which doesn't really solve the problem.

               

               

              I have zero sympathy for those kids, sorry. You can't say that all kids that commit crimes like this are simply a product of bad parenting, bullying or their environment. Some kids have serious mental instabilities/issues and problems that stem from chemical imbalances. There is also the ongoing debate of nature vs. nurture. What kinds of traits are you born with versus the way you were raised and how they do they affect each other?  Issues like this are way more complicated than gun control laws and bad parenting.

              5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

              nolamama


              CQTM

                Well, if it is nature, we don't even have the right to torture them in prison. We should help them. It is like people born with disability. The current system treating criminals like saying to the disable people if we consider them as a minority: OK, if you are disable, you should be killed or imprisoned. But we don't do that to the disable people, we spend money to create facilities for their convenience. You may argue that disable people don't violate others' rights. But if people keep arguing God gives rights, then nobody has any superior right. Again, back to my opinion, simply because the majority gain the power and create this punishment called LAW, which doesn't really solve the problem.

                 

                 

                I don't even know how to respond to this.  Confused We don't imprison disabled people unless they kill someone in cold blood, or commit some other crime worthy of the punishment. Unfortunately, some kids can't be helped no matter how much their parents and the community tries to.

                  I don't deny any criminal is not wrong. I also agree that helping a person with extreme mental disorder is not a simple task. However, locking all people with mental disorder together can never solve the problem and would never help them to recover. The statistics show 67% of ex-inmates go back to prison in 3 years in the US. Meanwhile, we seem not be able to find solutions to solve the social problems or simply because those having the power don't really want to solve the problems. They only care about not losing their power (for politicians) and how to make more money (for business tycoons who also have super power).

                   

                   

                  Lots of people grow up in terrible places and turn out to be decent people; only a small number even in the inner city areas are capable of something like this.  Yes, they were dealt a bad hand in life and started with an impediment.  But that does NOT absolve them of personal accountability.  The problem may have started with their surroundings, but it sure is in them now.

                   

                  So three cold-blooded killers who thought it was OK to shoot some random person in the back for fun, and you don't want them to go to prison?  Do you really believe that someone like this can be fixed to be a productive, safe member of society?

                   

                  I knew someone all through growing up that was like these teenagers...seemingly no conscience or concern for others, in trouble from a young age.  He got all the help our church and the community could give him.  When he was 17 he got bored, skipped school, broke into a house, and killed the resident when she found him there.  I know a lawyer that spoke to him (in prison) a decade after the event, and he still shows no remorse.

                  5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)


                  Feeling the growl again

                    I don't deny any criminal is not wrong. I also agree that helping a person with extreme mental disorder is not a simple task. However, locking all people with mental disorder together can never solve the problem and would never help them to recover. The statistics show 67% of ex-inmates go back to prison in 3 years in the US. Meanwhile, we seem not be able to find solutions to solve the social problems or simply because those having the power don't really want to solve the problems. They only care about not losing their power (for politicians) and how to make more money (for business tycoons who also have super power).

                     

                     

                    So your solution, since we can't imprison them or lock them in the same place, is to let them continue to live freely in society while we "help them"?  How about we put them up with your family while they are getting help?

                     

                    Care to elaborate at what type of "help" has been shown to reliably fix the "mental disorder" of making the willful decision to take another human life in cold blood?

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                       

                      I don't even know how to respond to this.  Confused We don't imprison disabled people unless they kill someone in cold blood, or commit some other crime worthy of the punishment. Unfortunately, some kids can't be helped no matter how much their parents and the community tries to.

                       

                      If the kids are believed not able to be changed, then there won't be enough effort to put in to help them. No champion never believes they could not win. Only after they believe, they can put in enough training and efforts to realize their ability and win. Does it relate? :-)

                      5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                      nolamama


                      CQTM

                         

                          How about we put them up with your family while they are getting help?

                         

                         

                        Exactly. I'm not willing to have them close to mine in hopes that they are rehabilitated from their evilness.

                          Okay, all you sick bastards, we're shipping you over to David's house.

                            So your solution, since we can't imprison them or lock them in the same place, is to let them continue to live freely in society while we "help them"?  How about we put them up with your family while they are getting help?

                             

                            Care to elaborate at what type of "help" has been shown to reliably fix the "mental disorder" of making the willful decision to take another human life in cold blood?

                             

                            Would I mind to live nearby a criminal? I certainly would be cautious but I don't think I would mind. I know criminals are all around me. The people that committed those crimes don't really change their mental status suddenly before and after the crime.

                             

                            I believe that mixing with the society and the public is a solution and I believe that love changes everything, professional helps, psychotherapy, public help, acceptance, etc.

                             

                            I heard a story from a friend of mine who lives in San Francisco. He said the area used to be full of crimes and it was mainly a Black community. Very few Caucasians wanted to live there. Then things have changed since Asians immigrated and mixed in. 

                            5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                              Okay, all you sick bastards, we're shipping you over to David's house.

                               

                              LOL. well, I don't think I could cope with so many. My house would become an open prison gathering with people with some mental trouble, which wouldn't help for their recovery.

                              5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)