A practical application of socialist ideas (Read 1168 times)


Interval Junkie --Nobby

    I find your whole approach to "conversation" (using that term loosely as it typically denotes a 2-way exchange) quite presumtuous and accusatory, which is an unfortunate turn for what might be the most agreeable political thread to ever be started here. 

     

    As the obligation to conveying the correct tone in conversation is primarily the author's responsibility, I'd like to apologize for not holding up my end of the bargain.  Whether it turned up in my writing or not, my intention was not a personal attack.  And yes, you are correct, it was presumptuous.  I've certainly read the posts that follow, but I making a general point about rhetoric.  I was not disagreeing with specific cases you or Tief point out.

     

    Now, I'll try to sit on my hands for the rest of the conversation.  Thanks for your indulgence.

    2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

    Current Status 08/28: Slowly working back up from a pelvic stress fracture.  4mil distance PR w00t!

      Are you a teacher?

       

      No, but give me a concrete example of money being "thrown" at public education without any consideration of its impact? I think public teachers' salaries are scandalously low (whereupon someone will show me the salary of the outlier teacher with 20 years experience who makes 100k; well, they would have).  

      "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

        The other problem that we have here in NJ is that there is way too much administrative overhead and corruption, so a decent percentage of the money doesn't even get spent to help the kids.

         

        I like the idea of extending the school day, and even the school year.

         

        I like the idea of more activities for kids outside of the classroom.

         

        I like the idea of getting parents more involved.  I don't want us to simply become a public day care service.  

         

        I don't object to spending on education.  I support it.  It is to our benefit.  But we need some changes because the way that we are spending our education dollars isn't working.

         I agree with all these points.  

        "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


        Prince of Fatness

          No, but give me a concrete example of money being "thrown" at public education without any consideration of its impact? I think public teachers' salaries are scandalously low (whereupon someone will show me the salary of the outlier teacher with 20 years experience who makes 100k; well, they would have).  

           

          Dude, it isn't the teachers.  The reason that I asked the question is because I think that teachers have become scapegoats for a lot of these problems, thus making them particularly sensitive when discussions on education budgets come up.  The poster's reaction was one that I have heard from teachers.  In retrospect I probably shouldn't have asked that.

           

          Just so you know my father was a high school teacher in NJ for over 30 years.  I'm not anti-teacher.

          Semi-retired.


          Feeling the growl again

            No, but give me a concrete example of money being "thrown" at public education without any consideration of its impact? I think public teachers' salaries are scandalously low (whereupon someone will show me the salary of the outlier teacher with 20 years experience who makes 100k; well, they would have).  

             

            Nader, you're missing the point a bit.  It's not that there's "no consideration of its impact", but that there is the underlying perception that spending more is a vital part of the solution, or the solution.  Apologies if I mislead you as to my meaning with a prior post, I type these during 2min brain breaks from work so my prose may not be exquisitely crafted.

             

            A good read.

             

            It's not about the size of the budget.  We have enough data to show that this does not, in general, work.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             


            Feeling the growl again

              I think that teachers have become scapegoats for a lot of these problems,

               

              +1.  Don't get me started on No Child Left Behind and the perverse incentives created.  It wasn't until a few months ago that I read that the actual goal of this program is to have 100% of children meeting requirements by 2014.  I'm not sure how anyone who themselves could pass the minimum requirements, could think such a thing logical or even acheivable.

              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

               


              Fast is better than long

                No, but give me a concrete example of money being "thrown" at public education without any consideration of its impact? I think public teachers' salaries are scandalously low (whereupon someone will show me the salary of the outlier teacher with 20 years experience who makes 100k; well, they would have).  

                 

                Not related to anything above this in the thread.

                 

                I agree teachers are paid a terrible amount considering our expectation of their work and how important that expectation or fruitful work product is.

                 

                That said money, specifically salary is not the only motivator and as a teacher, I'll bet you know a few rotten apples in the field. Payin a person who is just there collecting a check does seem to be wasteful. Please don't take from this that I think all or even a lot of techers are just collecting a check, most of the one I recall or still know were very true to their duty. If we can stipulate the first assumption I made then throwing money at the salary is not always nor the only answer. The way that money is distributed should be evaluated and I think this is the point trying to be conveyed. We sometimes take the shortcut process of just throwing money at the problem, and maybe another resource would be more effective, Training, time off, supplies, smaller classes, so more teachers at the same salary instead of the same number at a higher salary. might really be a better answer than money. Btw, I don't know the answer either, so maybe we need better studies.

                 

                Having said all that, I still agree, most teachers are undervalued and underpaid.

                2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K

                 

                Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                What in the Jehu?


                Fast is better than long

                  It's not about the size of the budget.  We have enough data to show that this does not, in general, work.

                   

                  When we increase the budget without restraints (in any industry or governmental department) it does seem that a lot of examples don't show the money moving through the system, due to the afore mentioned corruption. So it just make the system look worse and operate more inefficiently.

                   

                  Money is typically the easiest fix when you don't know what teh real solution is, or don't care to determine a more fitting solution.

                  2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K

                   

                  Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                  Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                  What in the Jehu?

                    All fair points.  

                     

                    But, I still maintain that generally expenditure of money is an expression of what a person or group considers important.  What we look at first for cuts says something about what we value least.  

                     

                    Andy, thanks for the link; will try to read later.  

                     

                    Pauly, I'm not a teacher.  

                    "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


                    Prince of Fatness

                      Money is typically the easiest fix when you don't know what teh real solution is, or don't care to determine a more fitting solution.

                       

                      Yes.

                       

                      Tax increases.  Support that and you are throwing money at the problem.

                       

                      Budget cuts.  Support that and you don't care about the kids (or the cause, to speak in generic terms).

                       

                      Is that true?  No, I don't think so.  But the constituents' property taxes are going through the roof and they want a solution yesterday.  And the politicians want to get re-elected.  So the short sighted solutions are the ones that get implemented.

                      Semi-retired.


                      A Saucy Wench

                        dd's teacher has said a few times that she has a very political mind, but was raised too well to be a politician. 

                        I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                         

                        "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                          dd's teacher has said a few times that she has a very political mind, but was raised too well to be a politician. 

                           Ha.

                          "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


                          Fast is better than long

                             

                            Pauly, I'm not a teacher.  

                             

                            Well it seems I always learn silly things from you.

                            2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K

                             

                            Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                            Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                            What in the Jehu?

                            Shikari1


                            Cotton mouth

                              An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. 
                              The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
                              After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.. 
                              The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that. 
                              Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

                              These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
                              1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
                              2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
                              3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
                              4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
                              5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

                               — This is a story from a friend.  Thought I would stir the pot a bit more.

                                An economics professor 

                                 

                                ....

                                 

                                 — This is a story from a friend.  Thought I would stir the pot a bit more.

                                 

                                You're a few days late.  The pots been stirred a few times since we've been talking about this specifically.

                                2014 Goals:

                                #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                                #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>