A practical application of socialist ideas (Read 1168 times)

    Thanks, plodder1, for the reminder that the work of communication, of problem solving, indeed of democracy is never finished. It's hardly a task fit for human beings, but it's the one we're stuck with.

     

    Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

    MrH


      The process is the goal.

      Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.


      You'll ruin your knees!

        Perhaps if we turn it on it's side...

         

         

        ... we might find A Class Warfare We Need.  A friend of mine authored this article and he has always been good at provoking me to think differently about economics.  You may enjoy his writing as I do, or you may not. 

         

        This thread has actually caused me to think and I particularly enjoyed the dialogue on education.  The link that stadjak provided on the Harlem Children's Zone was excellent and provides and example I think is worthy of investment.  Whenever we can address increasing he capacity of something to drive better results, we really have the potential to make some big progress.  Spending on education can be good or bad... I tend to agree that spending closer to the student has the potential to be more impactful than spending at a national/state or even district level.  Of course, there must be controls...

         

        As it has been said in so many different ways by folks advocating right or left (seeming) ideas, there is good and bad everywhere.  If we can focus in on witholding funds from the "bad" (still a loooooong way to go in determining how to judge this) and fueling the good... well, you know.  Thanks all for the civil discourse and for the thought provoking insights/opinions. 

         

        You guys are a pretty class act (no pun intended)...

        ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)

          You're a few days late.  The pots ben stirred a few times since we've been talking about this specifically.

          Yeah, see page 1, post 1. OP, if you will.

          Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.


          Feeling the growl again

            Perhaps if we turn it on it's side...

             

             

             

             

            Nice graphic.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             


            Feeling the growl again

              As the obligation to conveying the correct tone in conversation is primarily the author's responsibility, I'd like to apologize for not holding up my end of the bargain.  Whether it turned up in my writing or not, my intention was not a personal attack.  And yes, you are correct, it was presumptuous.  I've certainly read the posts that follow, but I making a general point about rhetoric.  I was not disagreeing with specific cases you or Tief point out.

               

              Now, I'll try to sit on my hands for the rest of the conversation.  Thanks for your indulgence.

               

              It's the internet.  It happens.  Maybe we'll both be more patient with each other next time Wink

               

              BTW I totally sympathize with the constant stupidity educators must deal with handed down by people who have no real experience or connection to educating children.  While my own experience as an educator was blissfully brief, I get to hear about all of it regularly.

              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

               

                Jlynn, that's an interesting article, and I like the way it flips perspective and argues for a more intelligent and discriminating approach to incentive.

                 

                I think that the article maybe is a little too strong in the language of its categories: "parasites, predators, villians, etc." And of course the term class warfare was not something that the left was throwing around, but is in fact a right wing talking point to characterize the left as, well, interested in class warfare. (What folks were really interested in was addressing the debt by rolling back the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest 1%)

                 

                I don't think the problem of politics is really how to identify the bad guys and the good guys (whoever these may be.) The problem of politics is how to live well together and solve the problems we face. This will require reward and in some cases punishment, but in most cases what it will require is common action, recognition of the problems, and strong intent not to put the political stakes ahead of the Political stakes.

                 

                In many ways the election cycle feels like a battle of good vs. evil, but it's better seen as a referendum on the tactics we would like to use to solve the problems we face. Looking at it like this seems better to me because as they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and in many cases the R solution and the D solution would both work--but of course lead, perhaps to different problems down the road. Sometimes I think we worry about those imagined "problems down the road" [socialism, the dismantling of government, destruction of social values, class warfare, whatever boogeyman you want to imagine, each side has its own] too much. Strangely, perhaps, we can screw up because we don't think "short term" enough.

                 

                Here are some problems we face right now:

                1) The economic crisis caused by the banks and the housing market (among other factors.)

                2) Decreasing social mobility and a shrinking middle class.

                3) The debt.

                4) Big $$ corrupting the democratic process.

                5) Lack of trust in each other, in the government, in America.

                6) Terrorism. (not as big a problem as it used to be, thanks to former and present administrations.)

                7) Increasing concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the few--plutocracy of career politicians and vested interests.

                8) Crumbling infrastructure.

                9) Outsourcing of jobs.

                10) Global warming.

                11) Rising health care costs.

                12) Unemployment.

                13) Energy.


                Prince of Fatness

                  ... we might find A Class Warfare We Need.  A friend of mine authored this article and he has always been good at provoking me to think differently about economics.  You may enjoy his writing as I do, or you may not. 

                   

                  That article was a good read.  Thanks for sharing it.

                  Semi-retired.


                  Feeling the growl again

                     Here are some problems we face right now:

                    1) The economic crisis caused by the banks and the housing market (among other factors.)

                    2) Decreasing social mobility and a shrinking middle class.

                    3) The debt.

                    4) Big $$ corrupting the democratic process.

                    5) Lack of trust in each other, in the government, in America.

                    6) Terrorism. (not as big a problem as it used to be, thanks to former and present administrations.)

                    7) Increasing concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the few--plutocracy of career politicians and vested interests.

                    8) Crumbling infrastructure.

                    9) Outsourcing of jobs.

                    10) Global warming.

                    11) Rising health care costs.

                    12) Unemployment.

                    13) Energy.

                     

                    Nice list.  Some thoughts.

                    1)  Yes.

                    2)  Yes, and additional problems created by a shrinking middle class...I think that's a list unto itself.

                    3)  Yes.  Magnitude of threat debated but IMHO it's a big one because the longer we wait, the worse the fix.

                    4)  Abso-frickin-lutely.

                    5)  Yep.

                    6)  Yes...it's been a long hard effort...and I think the credit needs to be spread around.

                    7)  Yes, pretty related to #4.

                    8)  Yes, and I think one is a sleeper in most people's minds but the cost to fix it would be HUGE.

                    9)  Sort of, I think this one is blown a bit out of proportion.  The pendulum is showing signs of swinging the other way on this one.   Wages and standard of living are increasing rapidly in India and China....in many job types the labor arbitrage has already or is already disappearing...jobs are coming back here.  But face it, the very low-skill manufacturing jobs are probably gone for good.  One may argue that is not as bad as it may appear to be....the cost savings are passed onto consumers which supports our current way of life too.

                    10)  Debatable...but let's say I totally agree you can't do what we're doing and not expect it to change things in some significant way.  I'm not sure we know exactly how though.

                    11) Yes

                    12)  Decreasing, but yes....don't forget "under-employment".

                    13)  Depends how you define the problem.  Shortage no...but we will encounter issues (Hoover Dam may not be able to keep producing much longer due to the dropping flow of the Colorado River, for example".  Have to decide what mix of sources we want and whether we want to pay extra (over market rate) to change that.  Wind only works when it is highly subsidized, for example.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                      That's pretty good agreement on the problems from two guys who probably vote differently. I'd even accept your revisions.

                        Yeah, you're like polar-opposite cops who solve crimes together.

                         

                        Hey!  What a concept for a TV show!

                        “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman


                        Dave

                          That's pretty good agreement on the problems from two guys who probably vote differently. I'd even accept your revisions.

                           

                          Probably. Clown

                           

                          Lets propose some resolutions to those problems so that we can see the sparks begin to fly.

                          I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

                          dgb2n@yahoo.com


                          Broken

                            I don't even know who you guys are anymore. 

                            Thunder smash!


                            Fast is better than long

                              You're a few days late.  The pots been stirred a few times since we've been talking about this specifically.

                               

                              I was starting to feel proud of how well this thread was evolving. Then someone had to plagiarize my plagiarism, which is a faulty attribution to Lincoln in the first place.

                               

                              I are deflated Shocked

                              2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K

                               

                              Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                              Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                              What in the Jehu?


                              Prince of Fatness

                                I don't even know who you guys are anymore. 

                                 

                                That's OK.  We don't even know who you are anymore, either.

                                Semi-retired.