39.3 (Read 338 times)

smoking weed 

That fueling strategy seems to work well for manfromnantucket, so maybe worth a try.

Crickets so far.

Well, I ran 18 today at about 3:25 marathon pace. It went well but wasn't as easy as it normally would be. I would have thought I'd have energy issues but I was paying more attention to the tightness at the top of my quads that had migrated up to my hips later in the run. Also my left glut was tight. All this tightness eased between miles 4 to 14 then increased. Still I felt better at 18 than I did when I ran just this marathon last year and my pace and effort was still steady.

I'm hoping this extra tightness might be a little aggravated by the track workout I ran Thursday, which I won't be running prior to the races next month. As a rule I will never run 3 out of any 4 days as hard workouts, which I just did. The rest of this week will be easy miles.

If nobody chimes in you folks are at least going to be witness me chronicle my crash 5 week training and invented training plan for this thing.

X, one question that seems particularly relevant to me concerns rest in between the two efforts. Are you going to have to spend Saturday post-half hiking all over MickeyLand or will you actually be able to take it easy and spend a reasonable chunk of time off your feet? Given your capabilities the combined time goal seems very reasonable. A full day on your feet, though, that includes a raced half (even if it's one that you're holding back in to whatever small degree) sounds like a prelude to a very unpleasant marathon the next day.

 What have you learned about training, pacing, distribution of effort, recovery, etc... What worked? What didn't? What would you change?

 

I don't know that I have anything useful to contribute to training that you probably can't figure out on your own (run lots).

I think it would be hard for someone to give advice for racing (pacing/distribution of effort) too. The cool thing about doing races like this is because it is a giant experiment physically and mentally (will you get into race mode the first day and blow the second, or make excuses to save yourself and hold back too much?). That's what makes doing races like this so interesting.  Most people can hypothesize what might work, few will actually perform the experiment.

As for recovery, I've done a couple doubles (but that involved sitting in a car traveling between races), and one triple (three days around Lake Tahoe). That triple was nice because after each race a big group of people would sit in the lake, "ice" their legs, and have a beer. I highly recommend sitting in Lake Tahoe with a beer, but since this is probably not an option, an ice bath, keeping the legs elevated, and compression stockings (full on anti-embolism stockings), are all a big help. I wouldn't worry about protein after the first race (the focus needs to be about short term recovery/glycogen).  Put some simple carbs in right after the race and then just eat what you would before any marathon. (That's just common sense stuff, I know.)

I did the Goofy Challenge last year.  I ran 1:44:45 (8:00 pace) and for the half and 3:38:08 (8:20 pace) for the full.  Based on my two experiences with marathon "stunt" running, (I also just ran two marathons a week apart), I would say the keys are a) not doing too much damage to yourself in the first race, and b) undoing the hopefully limited damage you did to yourself as quickly as possible.

For The Goofy, I had already started training for Boston and didn't want to change anything.  So, I don't have any advice on training for it.  From looking at my log, it looks like the only thing I did was a 4 day mini-taper the week before the races.  (I'm also a high mileage runner.  So, even though I was only a couple weeks into Boston training, I was already running 65-75 mpw).

As far as pacing advice, going in my thinking was that there were three options:

1. "race" the half and see what's left for the marathon,
2. run a very conservative half and "race" the marathon, or
3. run something in the middle for both. 

I went with the second option.  (Edited to add: I guess you could also say I went with the third since I did take something off for both races).  The idea of running a marathon 24-hours after an all out half marathon effort seemed like a recipe for a crash and burn to me.  For the half marathon, I think I remember trying to run it like it was the longest, worst tempo run ever - not all out, but comfortably hard.  For the marathon, my strategy was the run the first half pretty easy so I would be sure I could finish, and then "race" the second half.  (I ran the first half in 1:51:47 and the second in 1:46:21).  I think that worked pretty well.  It was still the slowest marathon I've ever run, including my first.

On damage control. for the Goofy, the only things I did was hit the hot tub and stretch overnight.  I hit the hot tub pretty immediately after getting back to my hotel.  I'm not sure for how long but definitely longer than the sign recommended.  My friends wanted to go to one of the parks so I sent them ahead and met up with them later so I could stay off my feet a little.  But, I did end up walking around a bit.  I tend to be fine after my races and then cramp up severely overnight.  So, I slept in stretched positions and very quietly woke up in the middle of the night to stretch.  I didn't do this for the Goofy, but for my week-apart marathons attempt I just did last month, I wore compression tights for about 3 days straight after the first marathon and I think they helped.  Edited to add: I also spend a lot of time with the foam roller and The Stick the week between the two marathons.  I'm sure that helped a bunch.  I didn't do anything as far as diet or supplement.  Based on both experiences, I feel like muscle fatigue has been a bigger factor than feeling like I was out of energy.  But, I don't know that you can separate the two...

Finally, if you are doing Disney, I would also suggest packing a spare pair of running shoes if you weren't already planning to do that.  With the heat/humdity, mine were soaked after the half and it was nasty putting them on again the next day.  The other thing I didn't think it pack was a throw away shirt.  After all, it's Florida!  But, Florida weather is odd.  I think it was a little chilly with rain the morning of the marathon but it was 60 or 70 degrees by the time we were finishing.

And, that's all I know about marathon stunt running.  (For now, I think...)

 

You mean the 13.1 I ran yesterday? No, it was just a run. Probably best categorized as a marathon pace run.

The way it is worded -- "13.1 Saturday at goal half pace" makes it seem like you raced 13.1?  To do that and then do 16 - 18 @ 3:30 pace might beat you up a bit more than you would like and set back continued training.

I don't have a lot of feedback  because the best I have done is race a 10k and 5k 45 minutes apart or run the Ragnar relay many times.

Overall, I think you just need to work on being able to hold pace on tired legs.  What I might suggest is to not worry about the pace too much on the Sunday runs except for the last few miles?  Try to get a few miles at the end at goal race pace...

I had written a response earlier in the day and my browser ate it!!! Let's see what I an remember.

I think it would be hard for someone to give advice for racing (pacing/distribution of effort) too. The cool thing about doing races like this is because it is a giant experiment physically and mentally (will you get into race mode the first day and blow the second, or make excuses to save yourself and hold back too much?). That's what makes doing races like this so interesting.  Most people can hypothesize what might work, few will actually perform the experiment.

 

As for recovery, I've done a couple doubles (but that involved sitting in a car traveling between races), and one triple (three days around Lake Tahoe). That triple was nice because after each race a big group of people would sit in the lake, "ice" their legs, and have a beer. I highly recommend sitting in Lake Tahoe with a beer, but since this is probably not an option, an ice bath, keeping the legs elevated, and compression stockings (full on anti-embolism stockings), are all a big help. I wouldn't worry about protein after the first race (the focus needs to be about short term recovery/glycogen).  Put some simple carbs in right after the race and then just eat what you would before any marathon. (That's just common sense stuff, I know.)

I do think it will be an interesting experiment. It's not just the races I have to strategize but also vacationing, etc... The half is the distance in which I feel most comfortable pushing. I'll be running 30 seconds over my half pace so I'll have to be careful to hold back when I know I can take off at any moment. Of course this is like the early miles in a marathon. I'll have to just go with that mindset.

I've not done anything with compression since 2011. I agree, if it works for me the full on treatment could be best but I'm not sure I'll want to sport that around the parks. Most of what I see for compression is for calfs but what was sore on me this weekend were all in areas under my shorts. Would something like CX tights serve the same purpose. Would it be helpful if I just slept with it?

I've never done an ice bath but would be willing to try. Hotel ice should be abundant but I think our room will have a roll in shower. Again, what gets most trashed is under the shorts. That's the scariest region to ice!

I'm keeping in mind that I may have to adjust strategy based on the weather. This year Orlando had a record high on the day of the half and then all that blew out with a thunderstorm leaving the marathon pleasant. I run the half pretty well in the heat but a little less so for the marathon in the heat.

Thanks for the tip on protein. I thought it would have been more important. I'm sure I'll get enough without trying.

I did the Goofy Challenge last year.  I ran 1:44:45 (8:00 pace) and for the half and 3:38:08 (8:20 pace) for the full.  Based on my two experiences with marathon "stunt" running, (I also just ran two marathons a week apart), I would say the keys are a) not doing too much damage to yourself in the first race, and b) undoing the hopefully limited damage you did to yourself as quickly as possible.

 

For The Goofy, I had already started training for Boston and didn't want to change anything.  So, I don't have any advice on training for it.  From looking at my log, it looks like the only thing I did was a 4 day mini-taper the week before the races.  (I'm also a high mileage runner.  So, even though I was only a couple weeks into Boston training, I was already running 65-75 mpw).

 

As far as pacing advice, going in my thinking was that there were three options:

1. "race" the half and see what's left for the marathon,
2. run a very conservative half and "race" the marathon, or
3. run something in the middle for both. 

I went with the second option.  (Edited to add: I guess you could also say I went with the third since I did take something off for both races).  The idea of running a marathon 24-hours after an all out half marathon effort seemed like a recipe for a crash and burn to me.  For the half marathon, I think I remember trying to run it like it was the longest, worst tempo run ever - not all out, but comfortably hard.  For the marathon, my strategy was the run the first half pretty easy so I would be sure I could finish, and then "race" the second half.  (I ran the first half in 1:51:47 and the second in 1:46:21).  I think that worked pretty well.  It was still the slowest marathon I've ever run, including my first.

 

On damage control. for the Goofy, the only things I did was hit the hot tub and stretch overnight.  I hit the hot tub pretty immediately after getting back to my hotel.  I'm not sure for how long but definitely longer than the sign recommended.  My friends wanted to go to one of the parks so I sent them ahead and met up with them later so I could stay off my feet a little.  But, I did end up walking around a bit.  I tend to be fine after my races and then cramp up severely overnight.  So, I slept in stretched positions and very quietly woke up in the middle of the night to stretch.  I didn't do this for the Goofy, but for my week-apart marathons attempt I just did last month, I wore compression tights for about 3 days straight after the first marathon and I think they helped.  Edited to add: I also spend a lot of time with the foam roller and The Stick the week between the two marathons.  I'm sure that helped a bunch.  I didn't do anything as far as diet or supplement.  Based on both experiences, I feel like muscle fatigue has been a bigger factor than feeling like I was out of energy.  But, I don't know that you can separate the two...

 

Finally, if you are doing Disney, I would also suggest packing a spare pair of running shoes if you weren't already planning to do that.  With the heat/humdity, mine were soaked after the half and it was nasty putting them on again the next day.  The other thing I didn't think it pack was a throw away shirt.  After all, it's Florida!  But, Florida weather is odd.  I think it was a little chilly with rain the morning of the marathon but it was 60 or 70 degrees by the time we were finishing.

 

And, that's all I know about marathon stunt running.  (For now, I think...)

It is Disney. I'll pack two pair of race shoes. When I ran the half 2 years ago I looked like I just climbed out of a swimming pool at the finish. I think my goal is "#3" and try something in the middle of both. I like your strategy of going out easy for the half and picking it up if there is something there. Of course doing this the best case scenario would be to just get a lower 3:20 as opposed to challenging the BQ. I'd like to run a BQ for no reason other than the fact that it would be hard to do in the Goofy. I'll not have a shot at that unless I go out under 7:30 pace and I fear that might be a recipe for disaster vs. a 7:50 to 8 pace which is usually a comfortable long run. I think that's the biggest decision I have.