Forums >Racing>Question on muscle endurance for ultra runners
Joggaholic
Of the materials that I've read up on the net regarding training for ultras, they seem to focus on proper fueling and training the body to run on fat more by running on very long runs on tired legs. Which part of ultra training specifically prepares one for muscle endurance? Is it the total amount of high weekly miles? Or the back-2-back and really really long runs?
Here's my condition:
a) I have an adequate aerobic base, >2000mi a year
b) No worries about fueling, as I will hit the aid station buffet table every 1km loop for 12 hours
I am mainly concerned about my leg muscles just giving up after so much pounding, which was what happened when I ran a similar event last year.
Moreover, can someone explain what exactly is muscle endurance? How is it related (or not) to one's aerobic base/fitness? I know seasoned ultra runners can run on for hours (whereas I have to do run/walk and go very slow), are their muscles just more resistant to breaking down than a less-trained person?
Feeling the growl again
Those on the board more experienced in ultras than myself will comment I'm sure. But I will say, don't confuse muscle endurance and resilience. Endurance is the conditioning of slow-twitch fibers to go on for a prolonged period. Resilience is having the muscles toughened to take the pounding.
For example, you may have a runner who has great endurance but poor resilience. They may hold together on a flat race on a soft surface, but add it some hills and their quads will get torn up. Conversely, someone who has practice hills and pounded their muscles until they become resilient will not have a problem with their quads being torn up.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
Uh. Have you practiced similar intake in long runs? You may have no issue with fuel availability, but choking it down is entirely another matter. The #1 reason for 100-mile DNFs is GI issues.
Kalsarikännit
Yup. I was thinking that is A LOT of fueling.
Wing, what kind of surface is the 12 hour on?
I want to do it because I want to do it. -Amelia Earhart
Yup. I was thinking that is A LOT of fueling. Wing, what kind of surface is the 12 hour on?
I don't suppose you're going to ask if he can run a 2:40 marathon
Last year it was a 2 mile loop on asphalt, I was stuffing gels every other lap and drinking water every lap. I started having issues with whatever muscles are behind the left knee after 6 hours, it got very weak and later degraded to the point where I couldn't really run because I could not put any weigh on it. I did not feel like I was exhausted or very tired, so I think it's a muscular issue.
This year it will be a 1 km loop on mulch, I tried a 9 hr training run this past weekend in a park on a 2 mile loop and taking a break every lap (so that will be like taking a break every 3 laps at the 1 km course). My goal is very low, I just want to still be able to jog all 12 hour. In the training run I took all the time I needed to stretch and eat and drink during the break, but the last 2 hours my leg muscles (upper quads and ITB I think) are just sore and weak. I figured it is again a muscle issue, at least that's what it seems like to me.
MTA: I plan to eat real food this time
Options,Account, Forums
I would think that a 40mi run qualifies as really long run training run.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
You put down more miles on one run than you often put down in an entire week. It would be weird if your muscles weren't incredibly sore or tired. Forty-two miles is an excessively long training run for pretty much everyone. Getting out of the thirties just does too much damage. You would be better served upping your weekly mileage.
As for the back of the knee? I don't know. I think the best way to build strength for the race is to train on the same type of course (mulch) as the race (it will be less of a beating but may require more strength), plus add in glute/hip/upper leg/core work. A strong core becomes really important as the race progresses and may help prevent a break down in form which puts goofy stresses on your legs.
Getting out of the thirties just does too much damage. You would be better served upping your weekly mileage. ... plus add in glute/hip/upper leg/core work. A strong core becomes really important as the race progresses and may help prevent a break down in form which puts goofy stresses on your legs.
Getting out of the thirties just does too much damage. You would be better served upping your weekly mileage.
...
plus add in glute/hip/upper leg/core work. A strong core becomes really important as the race progresses and may help prevent a break down in form which puts goofy stresses on your legs.
Thanks for the guidance WG!
some call me Tim
Based on my reading and my limited ultra experience... it's the long run. And judicious 'power hiking'. And your ability to keep yourself going when everything hurts. Check out this bit from Jason Robillard's book:The Long Run
Be honest. You probably thought I skimped on the last few explanations of the other training runs. It's because most ultrarunners don't do them. They spend most of their time and energy focusing on the centerpiece of every training plan- the long run.Well, except for Crossfit Endurance. If that was your training run selection, go ahead and skip this part. Just don't bitch to me after your 50 miler when your ass crack gets severely chafed, then the cheeks fuse together as they heal. It really happens Google it.
Okay, where was I? Oh yeah, the long run. The long run serves two purposes:
First, trains your body to deal with the rigors of running long distances. You accomplish this by increasing your long run distance gradually over time. It strengthens your muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, endocrine system, and any other bodily system that's stressed over long distances.
Second, it allows you to experiment in conditions that are at least somewhat similar to race conditions. How is that water bottle going to feel after 24 miles? Will those packets of spaghetti-flavored Gu still taste good after eight hours of running? Can you bend over to tie your shoes after 32 miles? How about needing to squat to drop a deuce? You can't test these variables without the long run.Long runs can take on a few different flavors. You could do one single long, continuous run. You could do two shorter runs over two days. You could do five or six shorter runs over the course of one day. Different plans will use one of the different flavors. Personally I like to do all three, though I use the first more than the last two.
When I design my own plans, I like to schedule a run that is long enough for me to develop an “ultra hurt.” I want to experience the point where the pain starts getting annoying; the point where I have to start actively dealing with it. This usually comes at about the 25-30 mile distance.
MTA: You really ought to come in the 'Trailer Trash' group forum and ask.
ME WEBLARG
And furthermore! This is more stuff from Robillard's book. Incidentally, it's all available for free here. Send the guy a few bucks if you like it:
"Trick #1: Expect the pain. Ultras hurt. Acknowledging and expecting the pain is a good first step. It’s also useful to know the pain is temporary. Most pains experienced during a race go away during the race. If not, they go away shortly after finishing. Before you start, write out a list of all the things that may hurt. The physical act of writing does something psychologically to make the experience more real. Forewarning leads to greater manageability.
Trick #2: Learn to discriminate between “this is normal long-distance running pain” and “I’m hurt” pain. This is difficult because it’s usually learned with experience. In the moment, most forms of pain feel like you’re doing permanent damage to your body. After a little experience, you begin to understand what different types of pain signal. For example, I know the soles of my feet are going to hurt really bad in an ultra. That’s just one of the pains that goes away shortly after finishing, so I can ignore it during the race. At Bighorn this year, I had a sharp, shooting knee pain. It was unfamiliar and may have been a sign of injury. Instead of just “gutting it out”, I changed my gait. Here’s a more detailed description of learning pain discrimination.
Trick #3: Learn to enjoy the pain. Pain is a bodily process. All bodily processes are subject to classical conditioning. You know the people that develop weird fetishes? The process that was used to develop that fetish can be used to develop a “fetish” to pain. Yes, you can turn yourself into a certified masochist. The trick is to associate pain with something pleasurable."