Forums >Running 101>3 Hour Long Run - How Often
I think I've done a grand total of 2 training runs in my life that were 3 hours or longer--both were by accident. So to answer the question, approximately never.
That is two more than I have done, unless you count a couple marathons I've done that, during the race I decided that it wasn't my day and they became long, supported training runs.
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It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
My first response to the posts saying in effect 'never, or hardly ever, do runs of 3 hours or greater' was WTF?
But then, I searched my log and found only 4 runs in the last 5 years, that were not marathons, of duration 3 hours or longer. I guess I just figured that 20milers would be 3 hours but they're almost always a bit shorter than I thought.
RA logs shed light on most all questions. the 3 hours or longer runs were a few years ago when I wasn't training well enough and thought that if I got in longer long runs (21 - 25 miles) it would substitute for good training and get me through the marathon in decent shape - wrong. I don't do those kind of runs anymore.
I'll agree with Nobby (as usual) in the general-conditioning context, but recognize there is a role for runs 3hrs and longer for some types of training - like ultras or slow marathons (because of slow courses with mountains or because the runners are slower for whatever reason) (or for people who just like to explore when they run - not necessarily for training for races).
If there's no marathon or ultra on the horizon (12 months), I probably wouldn't bother with a 3-hr long run on roads for some vague goal of being a better runner. Yea, if you're off exploring on trails, that's another matter.
But one should consider the alternatives - what other type of run would you do? You didn't indicate your entire schedule or near-term race goals. Where I am in winter, traction is marginal, so I'm not gonna be doing any VO2max workouts. On a few good days, I can get to LT uphill or fast leg speed downhill or uphill bounding on snowshoes (we had a couple small hills with traction the other day). But most days, I can probably get easy runs in, even with marginal traction. You might be in a position where you could do a run that's more productive than 3 hr long run - or maybe not.
If a person is already adapted to doing 3-hr long runs, then one every 3-4 wks is probably adequate to maintain that level of conditioning. For me, I don't like to let it go much longer than that, esp. by the time I start serious building in January. (I am building toward 50mi race and dealing with AK winter conditions, so I take advantage of better long run weather and footing conditions when I've got it. Jan-Mar is building; Apr-Jun is long runs -up to 8 hrs - and quality with April usually being one of my biggest months; July is sharpen / taper for Aug race.)
A person not already doing 3-hr long runs routinely would need to build to them in normal increments. But if built in proper increments and allowed to adapt, long runs over 3 hr should not be painful - same as runs over 1 hr shouldn't be painful. Most people don't take the time to adapt. I am a believer in the body adapting to how you train it.
But when I start prepping for shorter fall races (xc < 1hr, and 3.7-4 hr mountainy race), the first thing to go is the 8-hr long run. It got replaced by hill repeats and just one 3-hr run in the 6-wk between early aug and mid Sept.
FWIW. Since I retired, my normal runs tend to be 1-2 hr, mostly 1:20-1:45 or so, 4-5 times/wk (2days on/ 1 off). So a 2-hr run isn't a long run for me - it's a wrong turn, deeper snow, do an extra loop, just something where a normal run took a little longer. I usually use something close to a 2-wk microcycle with some variability for weather / footing in winter and rest of life, but have used up to 3-wk micocycles. I snowshoe run when appropriate. (ice and slushy flooding like we had early this week are when I consider my supplemental training like stepups) My running training revolves around a 50-mi race in early August, but I confess that I like to run - as far from the traillhead as I can get (personal bias and "why I run" = training may not be optimal for fast races, but it does get me to the finish line uninjured and ready to run the next day, usually).
A Saucy Wench
So out of curiousity I looked. 2008 was a good year for me and I had 5 >3 hr training runs (out of 312 runs), the first one accidental - I remember that one, we got lost. The rest were a build up to the Marathon, about 1 a month. The last one was the fastest and I remember that one clearly, I had been planning on 22, got to 20 and decided that I was good and to do more was pointless - I could feel that the good feeling wasnt going to last longer. My longest was 3:38 and I remember loving every minute of that run.
I also remember taking my kids to the hilly zoo and walking around for hours after one of them and feeling energetic. As opposed to the first time I trained I remember being a zombie after a 2 1/2 -3 hour run. Which is why I say look at the rest of your week instead.
But I had 24 runs in the 2-3 hour range, mostly in the 2:15-2:40 range. That is a sweet spot for me - right around 16 miles is where it becomes work.
Truthfully, I really love the long long runs when I am in shape for them (which I am not right now). I run for the love of it and I have felt most at peace on a long run. Avoiding the slogfest is pretty much my only goal. had one of those last week because I took a wrong turn and didnt know I was sick until later.
I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets
"When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7
Why is it sideways?
Some relevant items from my log:
Petco Run/Walk/Wag 5k
Interesting discussion.Now a perspective from a slower newer runner.
My training goal thru the summer and early fall was to achieve a 3hr+ long run (using Galloway running 1min, walking 1min to heal IT Band injury while establishing long run base) - I thought my half marathon time would exceed that! I felt I had to get my body ready for being on my feet that long. A good thing to, because along the way I had to learn more about nutrition and hydration while getting closer to the 3hr mark. I remember the first time I got past 1:30 and thought I would die because while hydrated I hadn't taken any nutrition before or during the run and crashed hard. Almost crawled home from 1/2 mi out. I was training in the 14-15 pace and hoping for race pace in the 13's which I achieved having run 2 halves within 40 sec of each other, 2:59:44, 3:00:27.Along the way I took over a min off 5k pace.
Am now re-establishing long run base and am using low heart rate training during the week to get more used to continuous running, increase running time/wk, and importantly avoid injury. Will build long runs to 3 hrs again most likely using longer running intervals or a combination of ljr continuous running (walking when hr gets to high) with Gallowalking (which I see now is a form of aerobic intervals). After re-establishing a solid aerobic base will introduce hill work and maybe speed work in the last few weeks before a 2/27/10 half where I am shooting to finish in 2:30-2:45.
So for me - I think building to a 3hr long run is a necessity, although I'll probably not do one every week.
bob e v 2014 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?
Complete the last 3 races in the Austin Distance Challenge, Rogue 30k, 3M Half, Austin Full
Break the 1000 mi barrier!
History: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008 on 62nd birthday.
Why do you think it's a necessity in the face of so much evidence otherwise?
There are two fundamental ways to vary training.
We can either increase the intensity of training or we can increase the extension of our training. These two qualities make up the purpose of training. The purpose of training is to be able to increase the intensity of our running and to extend current levels of intensity.
In order to stimulate intensity, we try to speed up our runs. We take a runner who can handle 10 x 400 at 80 seconds, and we tell him to run 10 x 400 at 78 seconds.
In order to stimulate extension, we can run at a particular intensity for longer. As in the above example, we can take 10 x 400 in 80s and try to turn it into 10 x 600 in 1:20.
These qualities are not only involved in every workout, but in every run. That's why we designate our runs with a distance and with an intensity. 8 miles easy. 10 miles easy. 10 miles steady. 8 miles moderate. We try to do two things over the course of training cycle and a running career: increase the intensity of our workouts and increase the total volume of running at any particular intensity.
Just as there are two basic elements of training, there are two ways to fail in training. You can neglect extension or you can neglect intensity. All of your running needs some measure of both, and the good training plan will, patiently, work on both aspects of your running. We stimulate them gradually, learning to run longer, gradually. Learning to run harder, gradually. Learning to run harder for longer, gradually.
When the new runner takes as his goal the completion of a marathon or a half marathon, he ignores ONE HALF of training, and focuses only on extension. He gets no feel for intensity, and he must reduce it as much as possible to attain the maximum possible increase in extension. Simultaneously, because his must create a radical shift in his body's ability to handle extension at the lowest intensity possible, he gets no feel at all for how to gradually increase extension. The other half of his training is now ruined.
As a consequence, this runner begins to think of himself as the type of runner who is bound to be slow, never realizing that he he is unable to improve because he is neglecting half of what it means to train and short-circuiting the other half. Thus this runner gets trapped in slow motion, trying constantly to extend his runs, able, barely, to complete long runs with the most minimal of intensity, but never getting any faster despite a large amount of effort and suffering.
That has not been my experience. I enjoy 20 mile runs on Saturdays, I have no trouble completing them, and I have a normal day afterwards. My race times are generally getting faster. My 10K PR (which was actually a ~6 mile race) was a couple of weeks ago, and its the first time I have ever placed in my age group. That 10K was also the day after a 4+ hour long run. A really cool thing is that my resting HR and blood pressure are a lot lower than they have ever been in my life. I have a 7 year old kid, so I can live with that.
Why did you think I was describing you?
timing?
I quote the people I am responding to. I was making a general point about training. It wasn't directed towards any person.
Should I assume by the timing of your first post that it was intended as a response to an inability on my behalf to appreciate the efforts of slower runners?
There are two fundamental ways to vary training. We can either increase the intensity of training or we can increase the extension of our training. These two qualities make up the purpose of training. The purpose of training is to be able to increase the intensity of our running and to extend current levels of intensity. In order to stimulate intensity, we try to speed up our runs. We take a runner who can handle 10 x 400 at 80 seconds, and we tell him to run 10 x 400 at 78 seconds. In order to stimulate extension, we can run at a particular intensity for longer. As in the above example, we can take 10 x 400 in 80s and try to turn it into 10 x 600 in 1:20. These qualities are not only involved in every workout, but in every run. That's why we designate our runs with a distance and with an intensity. 8 miles easy. 10 miles easy. 10 miles steady. 8 miles moderate. We try to do two things over the course of training cycle and a running career: increase the intensity of our workouts and increase the total volume of running at any particular intensity. Just as there are two basic elements of training, there are two ways to fail in training. You can neglect extension or you can neglect intensity. All of your running needs some measure of both, and the good training plan will, patiently, work on both aspects of your running. We stimulate them gradually, learning to run longer, gradually. Learning to run harder, gradually. Learning to run harder for longer, gradually. When the new runner takes as his goal the completion of a marathon or a half marathon, he ignores ONE HALF of training, and focuses only on extension. He gets no feel for intensity, and he must reduce it as much as possible to attain the maximum possible increase in extension. Simultaneously, because his must create a radical shift in his body's ability to handle extension at the lowest intensity possible, he gets no feel at all for how to gradually increase extension. The other half of his training is now ruined. As a consequence, this runner begins to think of himself as the type of runner who is bound to be slow, never realizing that he he is unable to improve because he is neglecting half of what it means to train and short-circuiting the other half. Thus this runner gets trapped in slow motion, trying constantly to extend his runs, able, barely, to complete long runs with the most minimal of intensity, but never getting any faster despite a large amount of effort and suffering.
Jeff:
I pretty much agree with everything you've said here. Except perhaps one thing--I feel "getting faster" should come naturally if the training (balance between stress and adaptation) is done correctly; not by trying to run faster. Many of MAF runners here can probably share the experience of maintaining the HR but the pace is getting faster and faster.
That being said, again, it is quite intriguing to me to see people training 3+ hours so regularly and hobbering around 9~10-minute pace. Again, speaking of the experience of Arthur Lydiard, if you get to the point where you can run 2-hours regularly, you should be comfortably "jogging" at 8-minute pace. THEN we can worry about squeezing the speed up a notch.