3 Hour Long Run - How Often (Read 2921 times)

WMRunner


    If you're running around 40 mpw and you do a weekly 3 hr run, and your average pace is around 10 min/mile then you're doing almost half your weekly mileage in that long run!  Not good!

     

    One point not mentioned in this thread (at least in the first few pages) is recovery.  If you're running long enough that you are not properly recovered for your next significant run then your long run is too long, regardless of time.  It makes no sense to run for 3 hrs one day and then bag the next two or three runs due to extreme leg fatigue.

     

    Somewhere there is an article by Lydiard or by Nobby or some other Lydiard apostle (John Molvar?) that gives a guideline for duration (and intensity) of run on a daily basis.  I would start with that, and then maybe play around a little bit with the long run...depending on how your legs respond to the guide.  If you can handle a 3 hr run and be back on the road the next day for a nice recovery jog then go for it.  Otherwise, limit the long run to a time that you can handle.

     

    AmoresPerros


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      I assumed this is only applicable for marathons and shorter, but I just read this below, which surprised me a bit -- as it refers to his Leadville 100M training philosophy.

       

       

      From Matt Carpenter's post LT100 2005 writeup:

       

      ...

      Training Philosophy
      The main reason I had put off doing an Ultra for so long was because everyone said they make you slow. I now believe that is bunk! Instead, I think it is the way people train for them that makes them slow. I found that I could not do 30-50 mile long runs like most Ultrarunners and still be able to do quality speedwork. One of my other goals was to win the US 10K Trail Running Championships in Vail, CO two months before Leadville. The only way I could pull that off was to run fast. I decided if I was going to error, I would error on the side of speed!

      In place of super long runs, I did back to back long runs. Both days I ran faster than I could had I just done one longer run. I also felt the second day better simulated the later stages of an Ultra because I was already tired. I took this concept even further in my day in/day out running. Heading into Leadville I went five months running 2 hours or more every single day and then another two months where the only days under 2 were the few days before my shorter races. All the while I was putting in two quality speed workouts a week—one in the flats and one in the hills.

      ...

      It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


      I'm noboby, who are you?

         

        I assumed this is only applicable for marathons and shorter, but I just read this below, which surprised me a bit -- as it refers to his Leadville 100M training philosophy.

         It's a big misconception that running long makes you slow. While most of my posts where covering the 3 hour run for a marathon, the 3 hour can move to 5-12 hours depending on the length and difficulty of your pending race. I'm simply suggesting that the length(miles or time) of one long run is relative. Since this is a running 101 forum most should stay below 3.

         

        OTOH, over the years, if you choose to run longer it simply takes time and patience to continue to extend your distance. We all remember when we did our first 5/10/15/20 mile run.  The 20 or three hours is simply an arbitrary line in the sand.

         

         

        From Matt Carpenter's post LT100 2005 writeup:

         

        ...

        Training Philosophy
        The main reason I had put off doing an Ultra for so long was because everyone said they make you slow. I now believe that is bunk! Instead, I think it is the way people train for them that makes them slow. I found that I could not do 30-50 mile long runs like most Ultrarunners and still be able to do quality speedwork. One of my other goals was to win the US 10K Trail Running Championships in Vail, CO two months before Leadville. The only way I could pull that off was to run fast. I decided if I was going to error, I would error on the side of speed!

        In place of super long runs, I did back to back long runs. Both days I ran faster than I could had I just done one longer run. I also felt the second day better simulated the later stages of an Ultra because I was already tired. I took this concept even further in my day in/day out running. Heading into Leadville I went five months running 2 hours or more every single day and then another two months where the only days under 2 were the few days before my shorter races. All the while I was putting in two quality speed workouts a week—one in the flats and one in the hills.

        ...

           

          From Matt Carpenter's post LT100 2005 writeup:

           

          ...

          Training Philosophy
          ...I found that I could not do 30-50 mile long runs like most Ultrarunners and still be able to do quality speedwork. ...

          ...

           

          I'm offering a different potential interpretation of the same article, when seen in a larger context.

           

           

          That article and his uphill/downhill article are two that I link to a fair number of times over the years since then. What you also have to remember is that he is largely a mountain runner (marathon and shorter) with VO2max of about 90. He added weights to his routine and many of his runs he was pushing a baby/Kyle jogger. He was running 14-15hr/wk. He has paced other people at LT100 in the 1990s. I really like Matt's straightforward writing and admire what he has accomplished. So, no,some people may not need to run much longer than 2 hrs in a long run for a 100-mi course record. But what about his prior years? and what about ultra runners that have set many more course records?

           

          A brief, similar comment from his 2004 San Juan solstice record http://www.skyrunner.com/story/2004lc50.htm :

          2) Training. Did not make the mistake of sacrificing quality for quantity. I found that a really long run (30-40) on the weekend interfered with my Tuesday and Thursday speed sessions. Although I did a few I mostly went with medium long (20-25) runs back to back on Saturday and Sunday.

           

          Note the length of his b2b runs = 20-25 miles.

           

          And don't overlook the link to his 2004 "30 plus mile walk of shame" with mostly the same training.

          http://www.skyrunner.com/story/2004lt100.htm

          It's also important to include the prior paragraph on Focus in the 2005 article.

          The most frequent question is what I did different between 2004 and 2005. Fact is, I pretty much used the same plan both years with one major difference—I took doing another Ultra out of the equation! You don’t hear from the best marathoners very often but when you do it is often fairly spectacular. It only stands to reason that the same principle should apply to Ultrarunning—if not more so. I left my Leadville in Lake City last year and learned the hard way that one Ultra was all my body could take in such a short timeframe.

           

           

          These first quotes above were from Matt's own writings, so I trust them. These below are from interviews, so don't know if they might be misquoted. There is one NYT article that messed up a bunch of stuff.

           

          From: http://petemagill.blogspot.com/2009/03/matt-carpenter-interview.html 

          I do 2 hours a day, and I try to get in a 3+ hour run on the weekend or at least every other weekend. But I guess you're still thinking that might be a lot since I call 2 hours a "rest" day.

           

          From: http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/2007/05/a_brief_chat_wi_9.html

          The big change for me was after running the Leadville 100 in 2004, I went and bought a quality weight machine. It hasn’t made me any faster, but it’s made me stronger and that helps with my recovery.

          He has used strength training before this, and I thought he used weights in 2004, but can't find that article (was by MC and had a week's table of his runs).

           

          The theme I see, is that Matt's body couldn't handle that many fast miles in close proximity. He's saying 50mi followed by 100mi in a 2-mo period (mid June to mid August) was too much for his body. But  look at some of the ultrarunners that do multiple fast 100s in a year. Many of the ones that I've seen tend to do longer runs in training with some faster or hillier stuff. Not sure how many do structured training vs strictly running by feel (is there a theme?) and working the mountains. Their recoveries are much faster. Somebody like Karl Meltzer has been winning 100-mi races for about 10+ yrs and has won 6 100-mi races in two different years.

           

          From: http://www.coachingendurance.com/blog/2007/08/interview-with-karl-meltzer-wasatch.shtml

          Just love to run, I don’t’ really train, I consider it time to just go out and play in the mountains. I sometimes think of the people out there that work all day, knowing I will always avoid that whenever possible is a great motivator.

           

          While MC is a great mountain runner, JMHO, he lacks the strength endurance of someone like KM who has trained to win and break course records over many years. Some of the younger runners (Krupicka, Skaggs brothers, Roes) coming along are running's version of ski bums - just run a lot in the mountains and win some, break some course records. How durable they'll be remains to be seen.

           

          And yes, there are ultra runners who do track races in the spring (help with local hs team) and ultras later, as well as RDing one of the tougher 100milers. People may switch emphasis among years.

           

          While the fastest ultrarunners may not run marathons much faster than 2:20, if that, I'm not sure the best marathoners can race as fast as the fastest 5k'ers and certainly not sprint speeds. It depends what you train for and how your body adapts.

           

          But  while I do agree that the OP probably shouldn't be doing 3hr runs "to be a better runner," many  people can do 3-4 hr long runs and run the rest of the week normally. And 8-hr long runs might need a couple days of easy stuff afterwards - AFTER building up to this over years. Like all things running, "it depends."

           

          (sorry this got so long, but it's a topic I'm interested in)

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


          I'm noboby, who are you?

             

             

             

            (sorry this got so long, but it's a topic I'm interested in)

             

            And your picture is where? Smile

             

            WMRunner


               

               


               

              A brief, similar comment from his 2004 San Juan solstice record http://www.skyrunner.com/story/2004lc50.htm :

              2) Training. Did not make the mistake of sacrificing quality for quantity. I found that a really long run (30-40) on the weekend interfered with my Tuesday and Thursday speed sessions. Although I did a few I mostly went with medium long (20-25) runs back to back on Saturday and Sunday.

               

               

              That was my point in my post at the start of this page. 

               

              Somewhere in the early posts Nobby said something about no such thing as junk miles.  If there is such a thing it would be miles such as this....miles that cause one to alter his or her future training runs.

               

              In all the discussion so far there has been very little about balanced run training.  No single guideline is completely adequate to define a long run.  Distance, time, pace...these are all important criteria, but perhaps not complete because they define the long run in isolation from the rest of the training plan.  Over time I've found that I need to limit my longest runs to about 25% of my weekly total time spent running if I want to have a successful following week.

               

               

              AmoresPerros


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                AKTrail, I doubt very much that MC's b2b long runs were under 2hrs -- he didn't say there, but I'd expect them to be 3hr runs anyway -- I wasn't thinking of the sub-3 super-3 distinction at all -- I was kind of guessing his distinction was something more in the range of successive 3-4 hour runs on Sat/Sun, instead of a single 5+ hr run. But I'm obviously entirely guessing.

                 

                Plus he probably runs stuff like you do, where it takes forever to cover any distance Smile  (trail and mountain and whatnot)

                 

                I just hit a pace record for myself today, I think, with 13:00min/mi average on my workout -- it wasn't that it felt easier than normal, it was just that I don't normally run in snow, and that caused my pace to be much slower than usual -- but I don't care, it was still running, and it was very fun.

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                   

                  That was my point in my post at the start of this page. 

                   

                  Somewhere in the early posts Nobby said something about no such thing as junk miles.  If there is such a thing it would be miles such as this....miles that cause one to alter his or her future training runs.

                   

                  In all the discussion so far there has been very little about balanced run training.  No single guideline is completely adequate to define a long run.  Distance, time, pace...these are all important criteria, but perhaps not complete because they define the long run in isolation from the rest of the training plan.  Over time I've found that I need to limit my longest runs to about 25% of my weekly total time spent running if I want to have a successful following week.

                   

                   

                  Absolutely! It's about finding the balance for your body and goals.  There are no universal answers except "it depends."

                   

                  While Matt Carpenter's body apparently couldn't handle the longer runs consistently (look at his race recovery descriptions vs somebody like KM or Geoff Roes), Karl Meltzer's body can handle more longer runs (no idea on total weekly mileage for MC but KM only does near 50 mountain miles per week)  and more 100mile wins and course records in a season. If I were betting on head-to-head races, I'd probably go with MC over KM in a 10k; MC over KM in a 50miler with good footing (maybe KM over MC in a 50miler on gnarly trail, but hard to say); generic 100-mi course, maybe MC over KM, but KM over MC on a gnarly course. But in a series of four 100-mile races at a variety of elevations - Karl Meltzer hands down.  (MC has never done that many gnarly trail races that I'm aware of to get a handle on that.) Matt definitely has more speed at shorter distances than many ultra runners, but only won the 50-mi TNF 50  once out of the 3 times he ran it. (but winner 3 of 4 yrs is 8 yrs younger and assistant track and xc coach at a university) Here's the winner's acct:

                  http://ulisteidl.blogspot.com/2009/12/2009-north-face-endurance-challenge-50.html

                   

                  (for those not familiar with LT100, I believe it's entirely above 10,000ft elevation, so MC's VO2max may play a significant role in his high altitude wins)

                   

                  Somehow we've drifted away from just being a better runner at marathon and shorter distances, but well, that's what makes discussions interesting. People can be fast at both shorter and longer distances. It's all in what they choose to race and train as well as what their body and rest of life can handle.

                  "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
                    How often do you have the opportunity to ski?

                     

                    March 4-7, I'll be in Breckenridge for a boys weekend.  And prolly a couple day trips locally with the kiddos before then.

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