Is it OK to take NSAID after a workout? (Read 1603 times)


Junior Amphibian

posted: 6/13/2008 at 10:22 AM
I've read some bad things about taking anti-iinflammatories and running. Apparently it can cause some serious kidney problems when you're dehydrated. But what if you take them after a run when you're fully hydrated. Does that make any significant difference?
"People ask why I run. I say, 'If you have to ask, you will never understand'. It is something only those select few know. Those who put themselves through pain, but know, deep down, how good it really feels." - Erin Leonard


monkey groovy

posted: 6/13/2008 at 10:58 AM
It is not okay.

All NSAIDS have the risks of ibuprofen, as below.

http://runningahead.com/groups/2000/Forum/Post/f623c335b3bb4d378863e8328597ac55#focus
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.


Blaine Moore

posted: 6/13/2008 at 1:31 PM
I wouldn't want the ulcers, either. That, and they prolong recovery from injuries. We swell up for a reason.
Run to Win

14 Marathons, 5 Ultras, 13 States (Full List)


Junior Amphibian

posted: 6/13/2008 at 3:07 PM
modified: 6/13/2008 at 3:20 PM
Trent... Aren't you contradicting yourself?

From your link, your own words:
Quote from Trent on 6/13/2008 at 10:58 AM:

Best not to take them at all. Why do you take them? 2-4 per day is likely safe tho.



I take only 1 after a workout. That amounts to 4 tablets a week. Of course, I don't take ibuprofen but diclofenac, so that might be different. However, I'm never at risk of dehydration, so that's not even an issue.

I take them not merely for "aches and pains" but for the ITBS, to keep the inflamation at bay. If I didn't take them, eventually I wouldn't be able to run at all. I've been through a fully inflamed ITBS once before and have no intention of going through it again.

And to people who want to say "embrace the pain that is running" I can only say "Obviously, you've never had ITBS".


"People ask why I run. I say, 'If you have to ask, you will never understand'. It is something only those select few know. Those who put themselves through pain, but know, deep down, how good it really feels." - Erin Leonard
posted: 6/13/2008 at 3:32 PM
Quote from renumeratedfrog on 6/13/2008 at 3:07 PM:
And to people who want to say "embrace the pain that is running" I can only say "Obviously, you've never had ITBS".


I think Trent quoted me on the pain of running. And I have had ITBS. I took a month off from running because of it.
The Logic of Long Distance

Caminante no hay camino
Se hace camino al andar.


monkey groovy

posted: 6/13/2008 at 4:04 PM
modified: 6/13/2008 at 4:07 PM
One ibuprofen is a subtherapuetic dose in adults. Take one pill and you expose yourself to the risks without any of the benefits. Diclofenac is dosed differently than ibuprofen and comes in many dose forms, so it is hard to know what you mean when you say one pill. How many milligrams? Then again, it really does not matter, because the risks are there at most doses.

And what Jeff said. I was addressing the numerous people who take medications to control the natural "aches and pains" from running. Your case is different, but this was NOT evident in your OP, in which you implied taking the medication after routine workouts. If you are taking the medications to treat a disease's symptoms, such as ITBS, then you need to treat the disease itself. For Jeff, this meant that he had to stop running. For you it may mean something else. But simply masking the pain without addressing the underlying problem does not correct the underlying problem, and it may put you at risk of adverse medication events.

To address the original question head on: NO. When you run, your body shunts blood away from your kidneys. This is the same as being dehydrated from your kidneys' perspective. AND when you run, even if you think you are fully hydrated, you may well not be.
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.
posted: 6/13/2008 at 7:02 PM
modified: 6/13/2008 at 7:03 PM
I've been following the NSAID discussion on RA for a while, and decided to get my son's take on it (he's an orthopaedic surgeon specializing in sports medicine, a marathoner, and a former Div I decathlete). Here's his $.02:

NSAIDs can indeed lead to acute renal failure (ARF). There are two types of ARF associated with NSAID use, but I’ll just touch on the one that seems to relate to the arguments on here about running.

As has been stated elsewhere, renal damage is believed to be due to the effect that the medications have on prostaglandins at the afferent arterioles. Prostaglandins normally act to dilate these arterioles, thus allowing greater blood flow to the glomerulus (the collecting unit). By inhibiting these prostaglandins, the afferent arterioles potentially constrict, decreasing the blood flow to the glomerulus and thus leading to ARF.

It is important to note, though, that the effect of prostaglandins themselves is relatively small in individuals without underlying kidney damage, as the basal level of prostaglandin release in the kidneys is relatively low. Consequently, the effect of inhibiting prostaglandins is also relatively small in normal individuals. The problems arise in certain patients with underlying glomerular disease, renal insufficiency, other kidney alterations (including severe volume depletion), or heart disease, in whom the contribution made by prostaglandins increases, and likewise the deleterious effect of inhibiting them is increased.

As with almost all medications, the toxicity seen with NSAIDs is dose-dependent. At over-the-counter doses, renal damage due to NSAIDs is fairly rare. Even at anti-inflammatory doses (e.g., >/= 600 mg ibuprofen 3 times a day), the renal side-effects are almost exclusively encountered in patients with underlying issues as discussed in my previous paragraph.

In summary, here are a few points to consider:
1) NSAID use is generally safe in normal individuals at over-the-counter or anti-inflammatory doses
2) While my experience may be limited, I have never seen (or heard of) a case of NSAID-induced ARF in a healthy individual due strictly to athletic participation while taking an NSAID
3) As with all forms of medical intervention, the risks have to be weighed against the benefits, and certain cautions need to be taken (e.g., stay adequately hydrated while exercising – especially when running a marathon). I wouldn’t take NSAIDs just for the heck of it, but if you feel that you need some type of pain control then I think they are a relatively safe option.

At any rate, while the argument is physiologically sound, I think the clinical effect that an NSAID “…essentially causes the blood to stop flowing to the glomerulus” – is a bit exaggerated (again, speaking strictly about healthy individuals at baseline).

Those are his thoughts, for whatever they’re worth.

BTW--when I was having trouble with my ITB, my orthopod had me on piroxicam for 30 days. That's an ibuprofen on steroids.
My Masters (>50) Race PR's:
5K - 20:17
10K - 42:36
HM - 1:31:22
Marathon - 3:20:48
posted: 6/13/2008 at 7:36 PM
Quote from Trent on 6/13/2008 at 4:04 PM:
One ibuprofen is a subtherapuetic dose in adults. Take one pill and you expose yourself to the risks without any of the benefits. Diclofenac is dosed differently than ibuprofen and comes in many dose forms, so it is hard to know what you mean when you say one pill. How many milligrams? Then again, it really does not matter, because the risks are there at most doses.


What about Naproxen or Aspirin for anti-inflammation? This post has focused completely on Vitamin I.


monkey groovy

posted: 6/13/2008 at 11:44 PM
Quote from Pron8r on 6/13/2008 at 7:02 PM:
I have never seen (or heard of) a case of NSAID-induced ARF in a healthy individual due strictly to athletic participation while taking an NSAID


Thank you for that perspective. I should point out, as a general internist, I HAVE seen this many times. It is not unreasonable, I think, to expect that a patient requiring care for acute renal failure would not be referred to an orthopedic surgeon. Smile I would also point out that, again, I am addressing the issue of taking NSAIDS for the aches and pains standard to running. Patients typically who have an orthopedist prescribe NSAIDS have underlying pain-producing diseases. In that case, NSAID therapy in conjunction with other relevant therapies to treat the underlying disease may be indicated. But if you went out and ran 5 hard miles and your thighs ache a bit, well, this is not why we have NSAIDS.

Quote from Gopher Ryan on 6/13/2008 at 7:36 PM:
What about Naproxen or Aspirin for anti-inflammation? This post has focused completely on Vitamin I.


As I have said in the original linked post, ALL NSAIDS, including aspirin and naproxen, put you at risk.
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.


Junior Amphibian

posted: 6/14/2008 at 7:11 PM
Thank you Pron8or for that non-alarmist, sane point of view.
"People ask why I run. I say, 'If you have to ask, you will never understand'. It is something only those select few know. Those who put themselves through pain, but know, deep down, how good it really feels." - Erin Leonard


Tantrum @ Velo-City

posted: 6/14/2008 at 8:25 PM
Thanks to Trent's repeated warnings about NSAIDs I have come to only take them before bed if I'm really hurting and can't sleep. Other than that I sort of enjoy the pain--proof that I've HTFUd. It generally doesn't last too long, anyhow. When it does it usually means that I need to back off on the training for a few days. Better to pay attention to pains that aren't temporary than to mask them and risk more serious injury, IMO.
Kirsten
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'08: 1561 mi
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'10 Goals:

• 2000k (1243mi.) running
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munchkn883


posted: 6/14/2008 at 10:14 PM
This is a little scarey since I was told to take 3-4 after my walks if my back was hurting. So, what should I do? I cannot take Tyenol.
posted: 6/14/2008 at 10:27 PM
Other than that I sort of enjoy the pain--proof that I've HTFUd. It generally doesn't last too long, anyhow.


I used to work with a guy who was an assistant trainer for a local professional soccer team. He said that all adult athletes will wake up in the morning with a little bit of pain. It means that you're using your body! I always keep that in the back of my mind and like you, zoom-zoom, I kind of cherish that little bit of pain. Wink
~ Mary ~

"Workouts are like brushing my teeth; I don't think about them, I just do them. The decision has already been made." - Patti Sue Plumer


monkey groovy

posted: 6/15/2008 at 2:21 AM
modified: 6/15/2008 at 2:25 AM
Heh.

I enjoy being both insane and alarmist.

Must be why I like the pain...

MTA: out of curiosity, is the other post okay because it conforms to your preconceived notion and the answer you wanted to hear? Sorry my answer was not what you wanted, sorry somebody answered the question you asked with inconvenient info...

Wink
peace, love and hills

I'm running somewhere tomorrow. It's going to be beautiful. I can't wait.
djtaylor


posted: 6/23/2008 at 5:45 PM
This thread now has me worried - I'm not sure if I am being sensible or overcautious. What if you wake up a few hours before a run with a headache and take one 220mg Aleve capsule before going back to sleep? Is it best to skip the morning run?