RunningAHEAD - Topic: The Pose

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The Pose (Read 1270 times)

Jeff view log	posted: 3/1/2008 at 1:52 AM modified: 3/1/2008 at 1:56 AM
	Quote from Runners bliss on 3/1/2008 at 1:37 AM: This is the exact quote I was looking for. Now Jim I know neither of us can dispute the above assertion. But be honest from your experience watching track even seeing the elites warming up before a marathon. Do you really see the same numbers they quote in that study? I have never seen that in practical experience. That is why I mistrust people going around making these presentations. Kenenisa Bekele, world record holder in the 10k, is a heel striker. See pictures here at 32 seconds and again at 1:48. There's also some great footage of Bekele and Geb and another fast runner at 1:32 of this video that shows heel striking. Former world record holder Geb lands forefoot. I can tell you one thing--doesn't seem like these guys are thinking too much about their form; they're just running.
	a vagabond,..highway-beater; a rolling stone, one that does nought but runne here and there. ~Cotgrave, Randle A dictionarie of the French and English tongues, 1611

JakeKnight view log	posted: 3/1/2008 at 3:15 AM
	Quote from Runners bliss on 2/29/2008 at 10:14 PM: among elite runners while there are some heel landing runners in the above 10K races the overwhelming majority do run fore foot landing for the ENTIRE RACE. Could you provide the scientific evidence - specifically the peer-reviewed, published study - that concludes that an "overwhelming majority" of elites in the longer than 10K distances run forefoot for the entire distance? And perhaps you could share your expert qualifications with us? Are you a professional athlete? If there is a way to improve my times and remain injury-free, I'd certainly like to see the science behind it. Obviously, to make claims about the "overwhelming majority" of long distance elites, you must have access to that science. I look forward to reading it. Thank you.
	E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com -----------------------------

Jim2

posted: 3/1/2008 at 3:22 AM

Quote from Jeff on 3/1/2008 at 1:52 AM:

Kenenisa Bekele, world record holder in the 10k, is a heel striker. See pictures here at 32 seconds and again at 1:48. There's also some great footage of Bekele and Geb and another fast runner at 1:32 of this video that shows heel striking. Former world record holder Geb lands forefoot.

I can tell you one thing--doesn't seem like these guys are thinking too much about their form; they're just running.

Excellent slo-mo shots at 1:30-1:50 and again at 2:45-2:50 in the second video that you referenced, Jeff. Two of the three front runners are clearly heel striking. The third seems to be more midfoot. None are forefoot striking.

Jim2

posted: 3/1/2008 at 3:28 AM
modified: 3/1/2008 at 3:29 AM

Quote from Runners bliss on 3/1/2008 at 1:37 AM:

What does the evidence suggest? If the Pose method is true, then one would expect that faster runners, who have apparently developed better running technique, would tend to be more mid-foot or fore-foot strikers, because they would be adopting the principles above. But studies actually show the OPPOSITE - in one study, 75% of elite runners (running at 3min/km in a 21km race) landed on the HEEL! That seems to suggest that heel striking is not necessarily bad. The 25% who were mid- or forefoot strikers were not necessarily the fastest runners, so it's not a case of run on your heels if you are slow and let the fast guys land forefoot!

Jim
This is the exact quote I was looking for. Now Jim I know neither of us can dispute the above assertion. But be honest from your experience watching track even seeing the elites warming up before a marathon. Do you really see the same numbers they quote in that study? I have never seen that in practical experience. That is why I mistrust people going around making these presentations.

For one his argument would not be defeated or enhance either way in my opinion so why stick in the statement that studies show. He could not even identify the source of the study.

I'm sure that Dr. Tucker would be happy to supply the source of the study if asked....and he is very approachable by email.

JakeKnight view log	posted: 3/1/2008 at 3:30 AM
	Quote from Jeff on 3/1/2008 at 1:52 AM: Kenenisa Bekele, world record holder in the 10k, is a heel striker. See pictures here at 32 seconds and again at 1:48. There's also some great footage of Bekele and Geb and another fast runner at 1:32 of this video that shows heel striking. Former world record holder Geb lands forefoot. I can tell you one thing--doesn't seem like these guys are thinking too much about their form; they're just running. Great video! And the heel striking is crystal clear. Rather pronounced, too. More of it right at 3:00 minutes. The only time you see anything even close to a forefoot strike is in the last lap at 3:46. Which makes sense, I guess. What's their estimated pace in that video? 4:10-4:20 ish? It looks like they're jogging. Sickening. Look at that shot at 1:54. Like he's out for a recovery jog. Except with enormous strides. It must be fun. Must feel like flying.
	E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com -----------------------------

Jim2

posted: 3/1/2008 at 3:34 AM

Quote from Jeff on 3/1/2008 at 12:31 AM:

Hey runners bliss--putting this in context really helps. I put what I thought was the key part of what you wrote in bold. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Right on!

In another article....Part IV of a Running Techniques series at http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/2007/09/running-technique-part-iv-running.html....Dr. Tucker said:

Finally, perhaps the most important thing of all - don't worry about how your foot is landing! The moment you start becoming pre-occupied with whether you are landing on the heel, the midfoot or forefoot, you're in trouble. That's a recipe for injury, because your mental concern about landing causes you to be tense on landing, and a tense muscle is not able to cope with the repetitive strain it needs to. Also, you change the loading patterns. For example, we've spoken about landing on the forefoot, and the injuries it can cause. most often, this was happening because runners were consciously placing their feet in plantar flexion (pointing toes out) before they landed. As a result, they landed on the forefoot, but the poor calf muscle was bearing the brunt of the body weight.

So what should you do? First of all, remember that the landing of the foot depends on the position of the foot under the body. If you 'reach' for the landing, then you will land more on the heel (unless you plantar flex, which is a BAD idea!), whereas if you allow your foot to land under the body, then you land midfoot. That's all you need to know, the rest is details. So don't worry about it.

The final point in this regard is that 75% of elite athletes are heel strikers, according to the latest study from Japan. I referred to this study the other day, but what was found was that 75% of runners in a 21km race, running at 3min/km, were heel strikers. Of course, one could always argue that if they were fore-foot strikers, they'd run even faster, but the point is that there is no apparent association between WHERE you land and how fast you are. So forget about landing - gravity will handle that for you!

Jeff view log	posted: 3/1/2008 at 5:02 PM
	Quote from Jim2 on 3/1/2008 at 3:22 AM: Excellent slo-mo shots at 1:30-1:50 and again at 2:45-2:50 in the second video that you referenced, Jeff. Two of the three front runners are clearly heel striking. The third seems to be more midfoot. None are forefoot striking. Yeah. Forefoot, midfoot, whatever.
	a vagabond,..highway-beater; a rolling stone, one that does nought but runne here and there. ~Cotgrave, Randle A dictionarie of the French and English tongues, 1611

CarmelRunner view log Running with trails	posted: 3/2/2008 at 4:30 PM
	I notice one other theme thourhgout here and it is "relaxation". Seems like those elites run very relaxed and their body places the limbs in the proper spot. Others here have noted that as well. Is this the real key - active relaxation and you will naturally fall into place with consistent training. POSE is a big advocate of relaxing the leg muscles especially the lower leg once it has performed the work it needs to do. Comments.
	"He conquers who endures" - Persius "Illegitimis non carborundum" - Gen. Joseph Stilwell

Runners bliss

view log

posted: 3/3/2008 at 1:03 AM

Quote from JakeKnight on 3/1/2008 at 3:15 AM:

Could you provide the scientific evidence - specifically the peer-reviewed, published study - that concludes that an "overwhelming majority" of elites in the longer than 10K distances run forefoot for the entire distance?

And perhaps you could share your expert qualifications with us? Are you a professional athlete?

If there is a way to improve my times and remain injury-free, I'd certainly like to see the science behind it. Obviously, to make claims about the "overwhelming majority" of long distance elites, you must have access to that science.

I look forward to reading it. Thank you.

JakeKnight.

I cannot provide any such evidence and I am NOT an expert or a professional athlete. Let me apologies if I in any way gave that impression. My assertion was from personal observation. I do know that many elite heel strike but in my opinion from personal observation it is obvious the majority are forefoot strikers. I thought it was so obvious everyone would also agree. Obviously you and many others don't so I guess I am just wrong. As a side note let me again say that I am not presenting this as a suggestion that it is therefore better to forefoot strike or that this is superior. When I was in school there were lot of kids I know who ran track and were forefoot strikers. There were some kids even when they walk they would tip on their toes. I just believe that it is natural for some people to run or walk like that while others do other wise. I run fore foot and I do not do so consciously. It is just the way I run and I think I mentioned earlier that I have a son and that is exactly how he runs. I would never advocate for anyone else to do so, but I think it is natural for me and has taken me through life quiet fine so far.

Runners bliss view log	posted: 3/3/2008 at 1:04 AM
	Quote from Jim2 on 3/1/2008 at 3:28 AM: I'm sure that Dr. Tucker would be happy to supply the source of the study if asked....and he is very approachable by email. Jim I told you that I emailed him on it and I am still awaiting an answer.

Runners bliss

view log

posted: 3/3/2008 at 1:09 AM

Quote from Jeff on 3/1/2008 at 1:52 AM:

Jeff

I do know that many elite heel strike. I thought that most did not.
By the way Dr. Tucker says Geb heel stike. If you look at the video of him closing out his marathon world record in Germany he certainly wasn't. Or maybe I should say in my opinion. I also asked Dr. Tucker to contact Geb and have him coment on the the issue of his gait

Runners bliss

view log

posted: 3/3/2008 at 1:34 AM

Quote from Jeff on 3/1/2008 at 1:52 AM:

Jeff
I did not check your video before I responded the first time. Jeff you have to be careful here. When running a runner can and does from time to time change his stride if he is breaking turning or for a myriad of other reasons. Not ever single step will come down on the forefoot. Additionally, you have to remember dorsiflexion, (not sure of the spelling) where the runner goes up with his toes flex upwards coming down but then drops sharply on landing causing the fore foot to go down first.
I did not want to put any more time into this but I am going to endeavor my best to contact Bekele and get the information on his gait. I am not going to concede this to you. In the mean time bear in mind that I am not saying that this means that forefoot striking is superior. As an additional note I am willing to stick my neck out on a limb to say possibly none of the guys in that video are heel strikers.

JakeKnight view log	posted: 3/3/2008 at 3:49 AM
	Quote from Runners bliss on 3/3/2008 at 1:03 AM: JakeKnight. I cannot provide any such evidence and I am NOT an expert or a professional athlete. So you stated a specific, clear, and unambiguous statement of scientific fact - that "the overwhelming majority of elites" are forefoot strikers - and now admit you have absolutely no basis for making that claim? Seriously? And then you explicitly told us not to listened to "biased writers?" Seriously? And you, uh, don't see a problem with that? And you wonder why people call it a cult? In fact, I'm pretty sure you just provided the textbook definition of cult behavior. Listen, if you need trolling tips, let me know. This isn't even good trolling. C'mon. Work at this a little harder. The overwhelming majority of trolls are way better at this.
	E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com -----------------------------

Dragon76 view log	posted: 3/3/2008 at 6:26 AM modified: 3/3/2008 at 6:50 AM
	Quote from Jim2 on 3/1/2008 at 3:28 AM: I'm sure that Dr. Tucker would be happy to supply the source of the study if asked....and he is very approachable by email. Jim, my apologies if someone has already posted this and I missed it, but I believe that the study referenced in the Science of Sport blog was this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=17685722&dopt=AbstractPlus MTA: The overwhelming majority of trolls are way better at this. I'm a slow heel-strikin' yogger. Just got that.
	Amy Email: Dragon76@HelloKitty.com veggies on the run Have you ever wondered if there was more to life other than being really, really, ridiculously good looking?

Ross Tucker

posted: 3/3/2008 at 10:34 AM

Hello Everyone

Ross Tucker here, from the Science of Sport.

Runnerbliss, I hope that you've found my reply to your email. I do apologize for not emailing you directly, but the platform on which you submitted your comment doesn't allow me to do that. So what I have done is post a reply to your comment, which you can read at this address:

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/2007/09/running-technique-part-ii-scientific.html

You'll see a link there to the study in question - contrary to what you have written on this website, I do gladly provide the links to any articles, and I hope you find this one too. The reason, incidentally, that I don't weave all the references into the text is because I do not wish to create a scientific "barrier" to science being read by everyone - I know the difference between reading a scientific text versus a lay article, and so I provide those links to anyone who wants them, but prefer to keep them out of the articles. But you can have a read of that article.

As for your case of watching videos on YouTube to prove that elite runners land on the forefoot, well, that's fraught with problems. I can barely make out the runner's feet let alone tell which part is striking the ground first! The Japanese study was performed with state of the art, high speed cameras which allowed them to very accurately observe the point of impact, so I'll side with that evidence for now.

That is of course not to say that athletes do not land on the front of the foot in some cases. Of course they do. But it seems to me that your argument has steadily evolved away from Pose to a discussion of footstrikes that naturally happen in elite athletes. There is, I'm sure you can appreciate, a huge difference between allowing a 60kg runner from running "his way" and landing on his forefoot, compared to taking a runner who has, for 20 years, landed on the heel, and changing that landing to the forefoot. ANd so in the POsts in this series, I've tried to demonstrate that when you teach someone Pose, you run the risk of suddenly loading muscles and joints that have never been exposed to the kinds of forces they suddenly find themselves dealing with. The scientific evidence on the first Pose Study showed quite clearly that the eccentric loading on the knee was reduced, but the load on the ankle was increased.

http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/2007/09/running-technique-part-ii-scientific.html

This, simply translated, means that the ankle joint is doing more work than before, and so when 80% of those runners suddenly broke down with ankle or calf injuries, it was not a great surprise.

The study is there to be read, and numerous anecdotal reports back it up.

As for the issue of sprinting, I'm not sure that's relevant. I don't recall ever writing that you should sprint on your heels, so I suspect you've taken something out of context there.

In any event, thank you for the balanced debate, Jim and the rest, it's really interesting to see Bekele run, because it has been quite clear to see his foot strike on television. He presumably falls in the "majority" of runners, according to the Japanese study! And apologies, RUnner Bliss, for not "responding to your email", though hopefully you recognize that I did not have your email and you didn't actually mail me directly.

Kind regards
Ross Tucker

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