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Have you ever been hazed or have you hazed someone? (Read 290 times)

ShuffleFaster


     

    And why is all of this stuff homophobic/sexist in nature? Why do we humiliate men by making them wear lipstick or pink? Really? MTA: Why is a man wearing pink or lipstick a bad thing? Why are we teaching boys/men that "girly" things are shameful?

     

    Because being effeminate (in the stereotypical use of the term) on the field of play is generally not considered a desirable characteristic in many male and female sports.


    A Saucy Wench

      I can still recite the greek alphabet 3 times to a lit match 25 years later

      I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

       

      "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7


      Menace to Sobriety

        So, where in this spectrum does the interaction between new Marine recruit and drill instructor fall? Hazing, bullying, initiation? Necessary or over the top?

        Janie, today I quit my job. And then I told my boss to go f*** himself, and then I blackmailed him for almost sixty thousand dollars. Pass the asparagus.

          So, where in this spectrum does the interaction between new Marine recruit and drill instructor fall? Hazing, bullying, initiation? Necessary or over the top?

           

          Character building.

            Excellent article.

             

            By the way, this thread frames hazing in terms of personal experience. The thing about hazing is that it is an activity directly intended to create very different sets of personal experiences for the people on whom it acts. It's a sorting mechanism. So, in recounting hazing stories and analyzing this in a personal way, it strikes me that the very frame of the conversation is a weird defense of the action.

             

            That's probably a little too twisted of an argument to bear much weight on a message boards, but it's what I believe and why I do not want to offer my experiences of hazing even though that's what the thread asks for.

             

            Put more simply: whenever anyone responds to this sort of issue by telling a personal story, as a way of defending hazing, you ought to be directly suspicious of whether or not that story is intended as an argument or as a declaration that they happen to be in the group on which hazing had X effect.

              The worst was the Fulbright hazing.  Recopying all the footnotes of a random PhD dissertation, backwards.  Crazy times.

              "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

              Chantilly75


              It's always something...

                And why is all of this stuff homophobic/sexist in nature? Why do we humiliate men by making them wear lipstick or pink? 

                 

                That was not the idea. Lipstick was used as a marker by kids  in the 1960's.  They wrote on our arms/legs with it for the hazing.

                No one in the 1960's had a magic marker at home, they were expensive.  Lipstick was cheap.

                 "I got nothing to do and all day to do it"  Styx

                 

                 

                 

                  Excellent article.

                   

                  Yes, excellent article!  Thanks for sharing.

                   

                  Found the John Moffit story interesting this afternoon as well.  The NFL has problems.

                  2014 Goals:

                  #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                  #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                   


                  MoBramExam

                    So, where in this spectrum does the interaction between new Marine recruit and drill instructor fall? Hazing, bullying, initiation? Necessary or over the top?

                     

                    Jeff's words best describe this process:  "It's a sorting mechanism."  Difference between Marines, sport teams, and frats is the stakes are much higher if the methods are ineffective or wrong.

                     



                      Excellent article.

                       

                      By the way, this thread frames hazing in terms of personal experience. The thing about hazing is that it is an activity directly intended to create very different sets of personal experiences for the people on whom it acts. It's a sorting mechanism. So, in recounting hazing stories and analyzing this in a personal way, it strikes me that the very frame of the conversation is a weird defense of the action.

                       

                      That's probably a little too twisted of an argument to bear much weight on a message boards, but it's what I believe and why I do not want to offer my experiences of hazing even though that's what the thread asks for.

                       

                      Put more simply: whenever anyone responds to this sort of issue by telling a personal story, as a way of defending hazing, you ought to be directly suspicious of whether or not that story is intended as an argument or as a declaration that they happen to be in the group on which hazing had X effect.

                      It's hardly groundbreaking to point out the NFL's culture of violence and the sad results it leads to in the lives of current and former players.

                      It is a bit naive to think that most men (and rather young men at that) are capable of enduring the rigors of professional football without building some physical, mental/psychological and even emotional walls to protect themselves.  He's critical of players bragging about their "own phenomenal hardness" yet goes to great lengths to demonstrate to the reader that he is tough. Or maybe I just don't get the sarcasm.

                         

                         

                        That was not the idea. Lipstick was used as a marker by kids  in the 1960's.  They wrote on our arms/legs with it for the hazing.

                        No one in the 1960's had a magic marker at home, they were expensive.  Lipstick was cheap.

                         

                        Maybe in some cases, but in general, I don't buy it. MLB players are not wearing pink backpacks because of expense. It is deliberate "feminizing" of men like that's a bad thing. I don't buy the argument that stereotypical girly-ness is negative no matter your gender, either. We don't try to humiliate girls and women by "making" them wear dresses or painting their locker rooms pink.

                         

                        I'm trying to remember if I was ever hazed at all as a girl/woman. Maybe a little? Not really, though. Any women in the military or sororities care to share what it's like? I'd be curious. I feel bad for boys and men for having to go through this stuff to be viewed as "real" men or belonging.

                        Call me Ray (not Ishmael)

                          It's hardly groundbreaking to point out the NFL's culture of violence and the sad results it leads to in the lives of current and former players.

                          It is a bit naive to think that most men (and rather young men at that) are capable of enduring the rigors of professional football without building some physical, mental/psychological and even emotional walls to protect themselves.  He's critical of players bragging about their "own phenomenal hardness" yet goes to great lengths to demonstrate to the reader that he is tough. Or maybe I just don't get the sarcasm.

                           

                          Yes, the writer adopts a "tough guy persona" as a rhetorical move. I thought that made the article interesting, and he pulled it off well.


                          A Saucy Wench


                            I'm trying to remember if I was ever hazed at all as a girl/woman. Maybe a little? Not really, though. Any women in the military or sororities care to share what it's like? I'd be curious. I feel bad for boys and men for having to go through this stuff to be viewed as "real" men or belonging.

                             

                            I know there was more serious hazing in some of the sororities.  Seriously the greek alphabet to a lit match was as bad as it got in mine.  You had to memorize a bunch of useless crap.  And there was one rather sleep deprived test night where you had to spout back all the useless crap.  I found the whole thing pretty fun, but memorization is pretty easy for me.  There were others who were more frustrated by it.  The "bonding" or whatever it was supposed to be came in that nobody passed until everyone passed.  So you could get pissed at the teammate who couldnt get it right, or you could try to help them.

                             

                            I do know of body shaming in some other sororities on campuses and alcohol stuff in others.  But this was 25 years ago.  My feeling is where it still exists it has probably gotten much worse.

                            I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                             

                            "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                            ShuffleFaster


                               

                              Maybe in some cases, but in general, I don't buy it. MLB players are not wearing pink backpacks because of expense. It is deliberate "feminizing" of men like that's a bad thing. I don't buy the argument that stereotypical girly-ness is negative no matter your gender, either. We don't try to humiliate girls and women by "making" them wear dresses or painting their locker rooms pink.

                               

                              I'm trying to remember if I was ever hazed at all as a girl/woman. Maybe a little? Not really, though. Any women in the military or sororities care to share what it's like? I'd be curious. I feel bad for boys and men for having to go through this stuff to be viewed as "real" men or belonging.

                               

                              At the risk of offending (and getting immolated):  in many sports, being effeminate on the field is a "bad thing", even in women's sports.

                               

                              For example, if you are charged with double-teaming a 350 pound D-lineman whose only goal is to maul your quarterback in whatever way possible, the last thing you want is a guard next to you who is playing like a stereotypical "girlie" because their substandard effort will hurt your team.  The same holds true if you are a women's basketball forward blocking out for a rebound.   Thus, athletes of either gender are not likely to look favorably upon teammates they perceive as playing like a stereotypical "girlie".

                               

                              Male hazing can express this by making men dress up as stereotype girlies (i.e. weak, able to be dominated).  Women's hazing can express this by making women dress up as stereotype tramps (i.e. weak, able to be dominated).

                               

                              Mind you, I'm not defending these behaviors, nor would I deny that there is misogyny involved.  I just think there is more to it than that.

                               

                              As far as whether women's teams haze or not, how about these examples (from ESPN.com and other sources):

                               

                              Essex H.S. (Vt.)
                              Gymnastics

                              Lizzie Murtie, a freshman, alleges that she was surrounded one night by 30 upperclassmen and forced to participate in a mock sex act as part of a team hazing ritual. Her mother is now pushing Vermont to create a state law against hazing

                               

                              Potsdam  State College (N.Y.)
                              Lacrosse

                              Eight members women's team were charged with first-degree hazing, a misdemeanor, after an informal team dinner turned into a drinking fest, according to police. They were also charged with seven counts of reckless endangerment.

                               

                              Kalaheo H.S. (Hawaii)
                              Girls' soccer

                              Two coaches of the girls team were suspended after team members were made to run around a field in undergarments.

                               

                              Dalhousie Women's Soccer

                              The university refused to explain what activities were involved in the hazing incident, but said that players were subject to excessive drinking, intimidation and humiliation.

                              Reports are that the incident involved the rookies being sent out on a scavenger hunt to search for items such as sardines and whipped cream and were made to eat them.

                              They were also told to dress up in odd clothing and play drinking games, the CBC reported.

                               

                              Franklin and Marshall Women's Lacrosse

                              the forced consumption of excessive amounts of alcohol and events of a sexual nature, including being blindfolded and having semen sprayed at [the freshmen].  http://jezebel.com/5924193/franklin--marshall-womens-lacrosse-team-under-fire-for-hazing

                               

                              LMU Swim Team

                              Some members of the swim team were seen in pictures doing "keg stands," and drinking out of sippy cups. The use of drugs and/or alcohol on or off the LMU campus is prohibited for all student-athletes, whether they are of legal age to drink or not, according to the Athletics Policy Manual.

                                                  

                              Other pictures posted on the internet site www.badjocks.com included women with sexual innuendos written all over their bodies and clothing. According to the site's publisher, Bob Reno, the pictures were accessed from a public photo sharing Web site, www.webshots.com that titled the photos "Swim Initiation 2006." According to Husak, the photos were taken at a party in November 2005.

                               

                               --------------------------------------------------------------

                               

                              And this is just the women's sports teams found on the first couple pages of an Internet search.   We didn't even get to the sorority stuff.

                               

                               

                               

                                Shufflefaster,

                                 

                                You should not worry that merely reporting the facts is offensive.  Your post is a helpful description of the current state of affairs in much of sports culture, male and female.

                                 

                                Of course, whether that state of affairs is a good thing is another question.  As you say, you are not defending those behaviors, nor would you deny that misogyny is Involved.  To equate the social markers of being female with something shameful and degrading is wrong, full stop, regardless of whether the sexism and misogyny is promoted by men or women.  (Another horrible example of this is Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona, who would punish male inmates by making them wear pink.)

                                 

                                I definitely think it's helpful to point out that hazing and bullying occur in all-female contexts too.   Women are people, after all, not angels, and we are just as prone to doing bad stuff as men are.

                                Current PRs:  Half-marathon: 2:04:46 (Nov. 2013) /10k: 55:01 (Oct. 2013)/ 5K: 25:40 (Dec. 2013)

                                 

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