RunningAHEAD - Topic: Training versus racing pace

posted: 2/11/2008 at 3:52 PM

I started running again last July after about a 5 year layoff. In January I ran the AZ Rock & Roll marathon in a very comfortable 3:42 (negative splits, and I felt great at the end). This got me psyched to see how fast I can go, so I'm training a little harder this time around and looking toward the Cleveland marathon May 18th. My questions --- directed at those with more experience and speed than me are: - What kind of time should I shoot for in the next marathon? - How fast should my long runs and tempo runs be? Up to now I've trained without a lot of thought to pace --- I just run at a more or less comfortable speed. For the marathon, I wanted to be really cautious so I took tbhe first 16 slow then sped up. From what I can glean by lurking in the forums, folks who seem to go fast (judging by their logs and race reports) seem to train slow and race fast --- even their tempo runs are way slower than race pace. In contrast, my recent long runs have been faster than my marathon race pace (other than running 16 in a blizzard yesterday). Also, I can do 7-8 mile tempo runs at 1:00 - 1:15 faster than my last marathon if I push it a little, and the only two speedwork sessions I've done have been almost 2 min/mile faster than my marathon. Am I training too fast? Or did I just WAYYYY overdue my cautious, conservative marathon pace? My ultimate goal for the marathon is 3:20:59 for a BQ. When should I be shooting for this --- is May too soon? Thanks for any advice! - Mark

Scout7

posted: 2/11/2008 at 4:03 PM

VDOT paces That site should give you an idea as to some possible paces to use. It's based on Daniels' VDOT training principles. You could probably go faster than what you did. But there's no guarantee. Tempo runs are usually done at your 10-15k pace, so they will be faster than marathon pace. I'm willing to guess that your current long runs are probably on the too fast side, but that may not completely be the case. If you run a lot of your other runs slower, then your recovery should be good.

slowgino

posted: 2/11/2008 at 5:28 PM

Quote from ClevelandMark on 2/11/2008 at 3:52 PM:

... ... Up to now I've trained without a lot of thought to pace --- I just run at a more or less comfortable speed. ... Thanks for any advice!

The comfortable speed sounds good... just make sure you have the mpw. Like you, I eased through the first part (20 mi) of my first marathon (age 39), then turned on the afterburners in the last 6.2. Time was 3:17 or 3:19 (IIRC... it was 31 years ago.) No Boston qualify there... I'm not even sure if my 2:57 at age 40 was a BQ... My advice would be to get to the 60 mpw or above range, do a few 21-milers, and you should be fine. FWIW, my best marathon was after I stopped any serious training and just ran for pure pleasure and enjoyment for 6 weeks or so. But the distance base was there, and I'd run some 10Ks. Good luck with your training.

Run To Win

#2867

posted: 2/11/2008 at 9:23 PM

You'll like Cleveland - I ran it in 2004 and had a great time. That was the first time I BQed. It was also the first time that they had the new course (which I assume is still the current one but I might be wrong.) My philosophy is go easy on my easy days, and hard on my hard days. Sometimes (most times) my long runs are "easyish" days - they have a lot of miles but at a slow pace. Especially as I get closer to the marathon, though, I like to have at least 1 or 2 long runs that are either AMP (at marathon pace) runs or faster - if I do that, then I will usually skip one of my speed workouts during the week. I've found that I can't do 3 speed sessions in one week any more, so I stick to two. My pace right now tends to be a little misleading though. Last week, I ran a 10 mile race in 5:48 pace. It was comfortable - definitely pushing more than I would for a tempo run, and I probably don't have a marathon in me at that pace, but there wasn't any point where I felt like I needed to really slow down or I'd keel over. This past weekend, though, I think I worked a lot harder. I did an 18 miler in 10 inches of snow - it had been packed down a bit by snowmobiles, but wasn't too easy to run in, especially after it started melting towards the end of the run. I had to fight pretty hard to maintain a 10:30 pace, so even though that's slower than I run my "easy" runs at that definitely was a "speed" session (strength session, at least.)

Run to Win
25 Marathons, 17 Ultras, 16 States (Full List)

JimHowe

posted: 2/11/2008 at 11:47 PM

Mark, I'm curious about what your mileage was before that marathon. Is the mileage in your log it? Nothing else?

Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33

ClevelandMark

posted: 2/12/2008 at 7:42 AM

Folks, Thanks for all the replies. It's really helpful to get the perspective of folks who have been doing this longer / faster than me. Scout, thanks for the link. I'm a little unsure about what to use as a recent race time, since I did not feel like I really "raced" the marathon. Maybe I'll just do a 6.2 run fast on one of my tempo run days and call that a 10k race time for purposes of figuring out training pace. Blaine, one thing that I take away from what you said is that your pace varies a fair bit between easy and hard days, which is what I've heard, but I'm struggling to make myself practice. For me, that would translate to easy runs at like a 9 or 10 minute pace, and I feel like I would find that pace really annoying. In fact, when I try to run that pace, I find it more tiring than an 8:00 pace, which just feels more natural. Is that just a matter of getting used to running easy? Jim, yes, all the miles I've done since my long layoff are in there. Why do you ask? Thanks, Mark

Tchuck

SMART Approach

posted: 2/12/2008 at 8:29 AM

Mark, You are confused on your training paces. SOLUTION Run a 5K race or even 3 mile time trial as soon as you can then from those results, Run general training runs around 1:45-2:00 per mile slower than avg. 5K pace Fast tempos (20-25 min) or 1 mile tempo intervals at around 30 sec slower than current 5K race pace) Long tempos (Tinman tempos) 30-50 min run at about 50-60 sec slower than 5K race pace or close to marathon pace. These are excellent to mix in during a long run or at end or in spurts or within a mid week longer run. Great for all racing distances.

Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

www.smartapproachtraining.com

Run To Win

#2867

posted: 2/12/2008 at 10:00 AM

Quote from ClevelandMark on 2/12/2008 at 7:42 AM:

Blaine, one thing that I take away from what you said is that your pace varies a fair bit between easy and hard days, which is what I've heard, but I'm struggling to make myself practice. For me, that would translate to easy runs at like a 9 or 10 minute pace, and I feel like I would find that pace really annoying. In fact, when I try to run that pace, I find it more tiring than an 8:00 pace, which just feels more natural. Is that just a matter of getting used to running easy?

It depends...(everybody's favorite answer!) First, your easy pace might be at what you are running now, or it might be slower. I find that my tempo pace usually feels pretty easy as long as I have dry, solid footing (hard to come by in Maine at this time of year) - I think when I was running 85 to 95 miles per week in college (sometimes up to 120 miles) that most of those miles were way too fast - they were at a tempo pace and not an easy pace. It felt easy, but it didn't really allow me to recover properly. 2 years of that and I got injured. Second, you need to decide on your goal race and then figure out your pace off of that. If you want to run at 7:40 pace in your next marathon, then easy runs will probably be at around 9 minute pace. If you can find some trails nearby, then just run those at an easy pace. It will naturally slow you down (and will help you stay healthy and avoid injury) and keep you from getting too bored. (Read trail running for road runners) The real key is to get your body used to running at marathon pace for extended periods, and to recover from any speed or long run work that you do. Running slow on your easy runs facilitates recovery. (Be sure to eat something after every run. That also facilitates recovery.)

Run to Win
25 Marathons, 17 Ultras, 16 States (Full List)

JimHowe

posted: 2/12/2008 at 11:55 AM

Quote from ClevelandMark on 2/12/2008 at 7:42 AM:

Folks, Jim, yes, all the miles I've done since my long layoff are in there. Why do you ask? Thanks, Mark

If you can run 3:42 at your size and on such paltry mileage, I see tremendous upside potential. You can take this as a compliment or a criticism, but the mileage you do isn't enough to run a decent 5k, let alone a marathon. When I say "decent" I'm talking relative to what you are capable of. My advice to you would be to gradually increase your mileage to where you are doing at least 175-180 per month and focus on shorter races for a while. As far as paces go, I agree completely with Tchuck (we both work under the same coach). I think you are doing yourself a diservice to rush into doing a lot of marathons right away. There's more I'd like to say, but must rush off to work now. Sure, you can break 3:20--no guarantee you can do it by May but you might. No question you can eventually go a lot faster than that if you are patient and train smart.

Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33

slowgino

posted: 2/12/2008 at 4:15 PM

Quote from ClevelandMark on 2/12/2008 at 7:42 AM:

... that would translate to easy runs at like a 9 or 10 minute pace, and I feel like I would find that pace really annoying. In fact, when I try to run that pace, I find it more tiring than an 8:00 pace, which just feels more natural. Is that just a matter of getting used to running easy?

Sounds like me at about age 40. I did most of my weekly runs at 8:00 to 8:15 pace, sometimes a 10 or 12 miler at 7:15 to 7:30 pace. Never a long run faster than 8:00 pace, usually more like 8:15 to 8:30. Nothing wrong with running at what feels comfortable to you. The legendary Walt Stack ran 8 minute pace all the time - he said if he fell out of an airplane he would be be going down at 8 minute pace. You have a lot of potential to improve if your mpw is really as low as your log indicates. A good mileage base at easy training paces will build up the fat-burning endurance metabolism, as well as help you achieve your weight goal(s), whatever that is. Then a few short races, some tempo/pace runs or a little speedwork and you're all set. Remember the old adage that only about 5% of your training mileage should be "fast".

ClevelandMark

posted: 2/13/2008 at 7:39 AM

Jim and Gino, Thanks for your posts --- they really have me fired up to keep training and to try to be smart about how I move forward. It's funny --- I started running again in June after a long layoff. Before that, other than doing the minimum "beginner program" miles to complete marathons in 2000 and 2001, I never did more than 16 miles in a week. So, from that perspective, the miles that I'm doing now seem like a lot. I really do want to see what I'm capable of with running, though, so I'm willing to build up the mileage base to find out. Thanks again, Mark

Training versus racing pace (Read 805 times)