RunningAHEAD - Topic: 50K trail race as a marathon training run?

50K trail race as a marathon training run? (Read 383 times)

jomike	posted: 1/23/2008 at 10:31 PM
	The marathon's March 30th. There's a 50K trail race on Feb 23rd that might make a good long training run. The course isn't particularly hilly or technical; thinking maybe I'd jog the first several miles, run the middle 20 to 22, then jog/walk to the finish. Anyone here done anything like that? TIA

trails2run	posted: 1/24/2008 at 4:14 AM modified: 1/24/2008 at 4:17 AM
	I would be more inclined to use the road marathon as a training run for the 50k, not the other way around, actually. But I don't know your background. Have you run over 20 miles before? Anything beyond 20 is a whole 'nother story, usually, and in a trail run there is usually less support/aid along the routes. I think road running (a marathon) is tougher, mentally, but the trails take more energy. Do you run trails regularly? How far? In general, It can be totally different on your body - working muscles you won't work on the road. MTA: If it's an out and back you can register (since you'lll be using their aid stations/food, etc.) and then turn around say at the 20 or 22 mile half-way point. Make sure to tell them you plan to do this, You'll be DNF'd but that's okay.
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Run To Win view log Blaine Moore	posted: 1/24/2008 at 12:20 PM
	Go for it. I ran the Pisgah 50k 7 weeks before running the marine corps marathon, which is a trail race that hits a small mountain. MCM was one of my best marathons that I've run. The nice thing about trail racing is that even though its harder than a road race, it doesn't beat you up as much. I don't know what your training is like, but if you are in good enough shape for it then go for it.
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Sherpa John view log Young Gun	posted: 1/24/2008 at 12:47 PM modified: 1/24/2008 at 12:48 PM
	Quote from trails2run on 1/24/2008 at 4:14 AM: Have you run over 20 miles before? Anything beyond 20 is a whole 'nother story, usually, and in a trail run there is usually less support/aid along the routes. What happens at 20 Miles? If you're speaking of "the wall"... it doesn't exist. Especially if you drink and eat properly along the way Usually at Trail runs the aid stations are anywhere from 3-6 miles apart. Not your typical 2 miles at road races. Its not THAT much difference. I say go for it. You can do anything you put your mind to. If you can run 5 miles you can run 10. If you can run 10 you can run 20... and so on. Not sure about your race plan Fuzz.... just show up and settle into a pace. No need to rush. Just settle in and run when you can. If you hit a place you need to stop and walk (like a hill).. then stop and walk... other than that... just run a comfy pace from beginning to end. You'll do fine. Ultra's require a certain level of patience here. Yes... I've done something like that... quite a few times. I run a 50K every 2 to 3 weeks for training. In November I ran a Marathon 6 days before a 50 Miler... blah blah blah.. BOTTOM LINE = It can be done. I agree with trails2run about the effects on the body
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cjregan view log	posted: 1/24/2008 at 3:17 PM
	Quote from Sherpa John on 1/24/2008 at 12:47 PM: BOTTOM LINE = It can be done. There used to be a race here called the "Durango Double" that was a 50k trail run on saturday and a road marathon on sunday.
	As soon as you're born you start dying, so you might as well have a good time!

jomike

posted: 1/24/2008 at 3:40 PM

I've run five road marathons and a half-dozen trail races of up to 30K, so I'm not an experienced trail runner but I've an idea what to expect. RTW, your point about trails being easier on the body is what got me thinking about using a trail race as a long run. OTOH, as trails2run pointed out, trail running seems to work the muscles somewhat differently. And I hadn't thought of dropping early in the last loop -- thank you for that suggestion.

Thanks, all.

trails2run	posted: 1/24/2008 at 6:12 PM modified: 1/24/2008 at 6:13 PM
	Quote from Sherpa John on 1/24/2008 at 12:47 PM: What happens at 20 Miles? If you're speaking of "the wall"... it doesn't exist. Especially if you drink and eat properly along the way Usually at Trail runs the aid stations are anywhere from 3-6 miles apart. Not your typical 2 miles at road races. Its not THAT much difference. I disagree - it DOES exist for those who don't know about it. Believe me, I KNOW. I ddn't start consuming energy gels until my 3rd marathon. ~~Big~~ Huge difference. And I disagree that water stations every 2 miles versus aid stations every 3-6 (or more) miles apart (typical of trail runs) isn't THAT much of a difference. Every 2 miles - I might not need to carry my own water, depending on the tempurature of the day. Every 5-8 miles - I have a handheld or my UD backpack with 70+oz. in it. And my own gels. Since fuzz's original post didn't have any previous experience listed, i felt put it out there as a warning - something every future long distance runner needs to know about and consider appropriatte action.
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Sherpa John view log Young Gun	posted: 1/24/2008 at 7:39 PM
	Put up your dukes! lol I know what you're saying trails.. I was a FUTURE trail runner once myself but hey,... different strokes for different folks. No need to get angry because someone offers a different perspective
	www.sherpajohn.blogspot.com www.peakraces.com www.newenglandultras.com

trails2run	posted: 1/24/2008 at 8:16 PM
	Quote from Sherpa John on 1/24/2008 at 7:39 PM: No need to get angry because someone offers a different perspective no not angry; no need to - just making sure that others that may use this thread wfor a similar consideration need to realize that training backgrounds are incredibly different between forumites. To advise a newbie that hasn't run some long training runs, that they can go run a 50k as training for a marathon is, IMO, not something I would do. And although we aim to be encouraging and postitive here at RA - we don't want to lead anyone astray to their abilitites. Again, I'll reiterate - it comes down to experience. Agreed?
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Sherpa John view log Young Gun	posted: 1/24/2008 at 8:25 PM
	Yes and no... I know a few folks who went out and ran a 100 Miler before they ever even ran a marathon. Using a 50K as marathon training? I don;t see what the big deal is. 1.) Its ONLY 4.85 extra miles. 2.) As a trail race and described above... though it takes different muscles, its a lot nicer to your body AND... I will add that chances are this person will run the 50K at a MUCH slower pace than they will the marathon. They also stated that they have an ENTIRE MONTH to recover between the 50K and the actual marathon. Thats MORE than enough time IMHO. Hey... They told Columbus the world was flat... He sailed West anyway. And he didn't die. A lot harder things have been accomplished. Human potential is only unleashed by those willing to unleash it. It sounds like Fuzz wants to give it a go.. why shoot his thoughts down with "be carefuls" and "better nots.?" GO FOR IT!
	www.sherpajohn.blogspot.com www.peakraces.com www.newenglandultras.com

trails2run	posted: 1/24/2008 at 8:51 PM
	I guess we agree to disagree. Quote from Sherpa John on 1/24/2008 at 8:25 PM: why shoot his thoughts down with "be carefuls" and "better nots.?" GO FOR IT! I reply to these posts as I would to a friend, a husband, my sister. I would NEVER advise them to go run a 100 mile with their maximum training run of less than 26 miles. Maybe 26 miles 2 days in a row - which is a common ultra training strategy - Yes.
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jomike

posted: 1/24/2008 at 9:29 PM

Quote from trails2run on 1/24/2008 at 6:12 PM:

Since fuzz's original post didn't have any previous experience listed,

I should have included that info in my original post. I apologize, folks.

FWIW, I'm certainly not put off by the caveats. Twice I've crashed hard in the marathon due to (in hindsight) insufficient training mileage. There seem to be some lucky souls who can run marathons on low training volume, but I'm sure not of of them.

Anyway, thank you all for taking the time to respond.

trails2run	posted: 1/24/2008 at 10:54 PM
	Quote from jomike on 1/24/2008 at 9:29 PM: Anyway, thank you all for taking the time to respond. Your welcome. Good discussion, anyway................
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obsessor view log hop	posted: 1/25/2008 at 5:49 PM
	If you are in good shape, I think it's a good idea to just go ahead and run that 50k. It will be easier on the body than a marathon, in my opinion. Running beyond marathon distance has helped me run a faster marathon, and it has not hurt my short-distance game. It's not the right choice for everyone, but it can be a good choice for some. You will probably learn something about yourself, in the process.
	"Men, today we die a little." Emil Zatopek at the start of the Olympic Marathon

crunningman

3:30AM - Leadville, CO

posted: 1/27/2008 at 1:18 AM

I think it is a great idea as long as you treat it as a training type run. Hard to do sometimes.

I plan on doing this myself soon, but don't plan on racing either event as both lead up to much longer races. Need to pick your poison as they say.
02/16 LLTH 50K
03/30 ORRRC Marathon

Remember to enjoy yourself out there. It can't be all serious! Big grin

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