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When to Double (Read 2150 times)


Feeling the growl again

    Sounds like the way you tried to run the tempo had a lot more to do with the result than the easy morning run....that and trying to run it at a pre-specified pace perhaps rather than going by effort level. Personally I did better with a nice easy leg-loosening run the morning of a workout day. Maybe that's just me. Actually I see three reasons to run doubles, and I'll rank them from best to not-so-best: 1) Running like 70+ mpw, inpractical to increase mileage in singles as even shortest runs get too long for variety and recovery. 2) Building mileage; trying to get to 70mpw and adding it in singles is not going as smoothly as you may like 3) Don't have time to run all miles in singles You look like you could fit #2. A lot of accomplished people will say "no doubled until 70+ mpw" but they may be coming from a different perspective. They've run 70 mpw before. 70 mpw with doubles is not as good as 70 mpw in singles, but it sure as heck is better than 50-55mpw in singles. So if you can't handle 70mpw in singles yet, but you can extend your 50-55mpw to 70 by adding doubles, why not?? Then you acclimate and either a) reduce/eliminate the doubles, or b) acclimate and add even more miles and have already worked doubling into your routine. Me, I'm in #3 right now. The worst reason.

    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

     

      I think doubles have an advantage at any mileage level, at least much below 70. And I think 70 mpw in doubles can be better than 70 mpw in singles depending on the racing goal and the phase of training. But, they certainly don't save time. The overhead time cost of running (changing clothes, showering, stretching if applicable, washing clothes, travelling to training site if applicable, etc) all "double" when doing doubles. I could understand doubles being the only way to make the timing work if someone had freedom in the morning and evening, but could not consistently get an hour and a half of free time in a consecutive block per day. But I would feel sorry for that person. Part of the reason I stopped running doubles was due to the fact that it just took so much time.
      For message board success, follow these three easy steps in the correct order: 1) Read, 2) Comprehend, 3) Post.
        First off, thanks for the feedback! Makes sense as far as tempo run, the fact that I was feeling race-like fatigue on the way out probably clued me in. I imagine I had a "feel" in my legs as far as what pace I would do normally tempo at (having done the majority on the treadmill, but trying to get away from that) and just wasn't giving it up despite the fact that I was heading into the wind. I just need to work on my pacing in general, only run about 4-5 races so far and all of those have been WAY below potential, almost assuredly due to going out to hard/failing to compensate for the course. I'd certianly think I can run a 5k faster than 22:41, given that I can run a mile around 5:45. As far as doubles go, It fits both spaniels 2 and 3. Feels like it might be adding to much to try to take it all on in singles right now. Also, number three is somewhat true because of light issues (not comfortable here in the dark), the way my class/work schedule works out I don't get to run till about 4:30 and it gets dark about 5:30-5:45 so that restricts me to 8-9 max for my weekday runs, leaving too much milage to "make-up" on the weekends, especially considering that golf practice gets factored in there (a 14 mile run after 4-5 hrs of beating balls and putting and then playing 9 or 18 holes makes for a damn tiring day). So doubles fits easiest into my time schedule and I will already be in the doubles format if I get to 70mpw, feel good, and decided to ramp any higher from there. If not it'll be light enough in the evenings by that time and I should be able to go to 70mpw as singles.

        They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."


        Craig

          There is good info in Pfitzinger and McMillan articles: http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/twoadays.shtml or http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=5903 http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=13667 Both suggest starting with an additional easy run on the day of a hard workout. Pfitzinger suggests the second run as either an easy run in the morning to loosen up for evening workout or as recovery run after earlier workout. "An easy run in the morning will loosen you up for an evening session of long intervals or speedwork. Similarly, 30 minutes of easy running in the evening will help you recover from a morning tempo run, interval workout, or tune-up race." I've read elsewhere (but unable to find it now) that you should start by adding doubles on easy days to keep recovery runs short. Pfitzinger suggests doubles on easy days when your schedule gets to 8 miles on recovery days, but then he gets confusing because he warns against adding mileage to recovery days for the sole purpose of increasing weekly mileage. McMillan suggests switching to doubles on easy days if you find it works better for you.
            You bastard!
            Scout7


            CPT Curmudgeon

              Malmo says start doubles as soon as possible.
              Doubles. Doubles. Doubles. As many days a week as you can. If you can't do six then do five. If you can't do five then do four. If you can't do four .... then, you get the picture... Start doing them on 40 miles per week. Just do it.
              Just to add to the fire.


              I've got a fever...

                But, they certainly don't save time. The overhead time cost of running (changing clothes, showering, stretching if applicable, washing clothes, travelling to training site if applicable, etc) all "double" when doing doubles.
                Yes and no. I see your point, but it's often still a lot easier to find two 1-hour blocks of time in your day versus one 2-hour block, for example.

                On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.


                Non ducor, duco.

                  I think doubles have an advantage at any mileage level, at least much below 70. And I think 70 mpw in doubles can be better than 70 mpw in singles depending on the racing goal and the phase of training. But, they certainly don't save time. The overhead time cost of running (changing clothes, showering, stretching if applicable, washing clothes, travelling to training site if applicable, etc) all "double" when doing doubles. I could understand doubles being the only way to make the timing work if someone had freedom in the morning and evening, but could not consistently get an hour and a half of free time in a consecutive block per day. But I would feel sorry for that person. Part of the reason I stopped running doubles was due to the fact that it just took so much time.
                  +42 Doubles take WAY more time. The only solution is to not shower between them.

                  I'm back.

                    Doubles take WAY more time.
                    Stop primping so long in front of the mirror and they don't take that much more time.

                    Runners run.


                    Non ducor, duco.

                      Stop primping so long in front of the mirror and they don't take that much more time.
                      Primp? me? Im the chick that can shower and be ready in <15 minutes.>

                      I'm back.

                      JellyFish


                        +42 Doubles take WAY more time. The only solution is to not shower between them.
                        umm it's called the wash-cloth wipe down...


                        Non ducor, duco.

                          umm it's called the wash-cloth wipe down...
                          ewww. I live in a sweaty place, ya know.

                          I'm back.

                          Scout7


                          CPT Curmudgeon

                            umm it's called the wash-cloth wipe down...
                            We called it a whore bath: face, pits, crotch, ass, feet.
                              We called it a whore bath: face, pits, crotch, ass, feet.
                              After that visual, I am not sure I want to do this relay next month anymore.
                                I don't have any opinion on when or why or if... but I can share my limited experience with them... I tried them out when I was pushing my milage last year. I found on tempo run days my milage slipped... and if I wanted to keep it up... that running extra easy miles before or after my tempo run just made it so that my tempo run stunk... or it was just beating me up (if after)... so like mikey mentioned I started running 3-6 easy miles in the morning then ran my warmup... tempo... warm down... and actually my legs felt much better during the tempo run. I also did a couple other doubles...and I found the doubles were easier on my body say than a single.. .like running 7 in the morning and 10 at night was easier than running 17 in one pop....
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