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Hard-Easy Training (articles) (Read 915 times)

    How do you train?
    The specifics depend on whether I'm in the final few weeks of getting ready to race a particular distance but generally, since I'm trainig to race long distances, I do most of my fast/hard running during my two longest runs of the week. As it gets time to race, I'll gear those two big workouts more specifically to the distances I'm getting ready for. It's been a while since I trained for a marathon, but when it comes time again next summer/fall, my big workouts will include lots of big tempos at marathon pace and faster. And even when I run much faster, such as intervals, I do so within one of these big workouts. Unless there's snow on the ground or I'm injured or sick, I never do long runs at an average of 45-90 seconds per mile slower than Marathon Pace. With the self-imposed limits I'm putting on how much time I can spend training, it's just not an efficient use of my time to go out and jog around for 90-120 minutes. I may warm up at that pace and do recovery intervals at that pace, but the average pace for the run ends up well faster than MP+ :45 and there are big sections during my long runs when I'm running at or faster than MP.

    Runners run.

      Okay. I think Lydiard says something like run as hard (and as far) as you can without breaking down. This is easier said than done, and begs the question of how to balance quality and quantity. When I was younger and training in college, I would run all of my runs as close to 6:00 pace as I could (see oce222's log). This was manageable for me--I could run 10 miles at 6:00 pace every day of the week. No long runs. I got pretty fast doing this as my summer base work, coming into the season and running sub 26:00 for 5 miles cross country off of this kind of work without speed training (of course, I also worked heavy construction all day, which had to have had some effect on my endurance as well). My idea was that since I wanted to be running 5:00 or faster in races, why would I waste my time running 7:00 pace? I had a lot of success in high school and college with this sort of attitude. Now, being older, wiser, slower, and maybe not as tough, I'm not afraid to take an easy day. Or, to rephrase it, I'm not able to hammer every day. But when I feel good, I run fast. I never intentionally hold my pace back (unless I'm running with Trent Wink). That's why I label most of my runs as "base" runs instead of "easy" runs. The base has to be solid. Solidity means a combination of quantity and quality. How these two facets of training are combined depends a lot on your body, your experience, and your goals, but for maximal results you need to emphasize both in your training. If you want to be fast, then you have to train fast. If I were to boil my thinking on this down into a rule, it would be this: it is important to run a mileage that you are able to run in a quality way. If you are spacing out and daydreaming and just moving along on your run, then my thinking is that you're not maximizing your training; you're sacrificing quality to quantity. If, however, you are focused, grooved, and working to feel relaxed and strong, then that's what quality feels like. That feeling of focus and relaxed intensity may happen at 10:00 pace or at 6:30 pace, but search for it and cultivate it--it is the key to improving. And, no, quality doesn't mean struggling, puking, weaving, straining or any of that. Practicing that is practicing bonking. And it's no fun. So, I guess I'd side with Trent, mostly, on this, though as I've said before, there are not two sides to this coin. Or, better put, proper training requires both sides of the coin. Bumping your mileage with slow easy running is good only if it leads to quality running at that same mileage down the road. More quality without the miles will leave you dragging at the end of a marathon. To get caught up in the question of miles vs. quality is already to miss the point. You need quality miles. As many as you can handle, without breaking down. modified to add: While I was working on this novel. Mike and Scout pretty much summed it up more succinctly. Good work, fellas.


      A Dance with Monkeys

        You need quality miles. As many as you can handle, without breaking down.
        Or, put differently, "Load to Failure".
          Or, put differently, "Load to Failure".
          Well, how about "Load to Success." After all, failure's what happens along the way--but it's not the goal. At least for most of us...


          A Dance with Monkeys

            Well, how about "Load to Success." After all, failure's what happens along the way--but it's not the goal. At least for most of us...
            Yes, that is another view Wink Or is it sub-load to success.
              This is turning into an interesting thread. I think my base is now pretty well established as I have increased my pace for the same effort and importantly I am not fading at the end of my runs. Come March I will try to introduce more quality by running generally at a slightly higher pace and introducing a few tempo miles into the mix. I will be interested to see where I have got to by April 13th which will be my born-again 1st running birthday.

              2013

              3000 miles

              Sub 19:00 for 5K  05-03-13 Clee Prom 5K - 19:00:66 that was bloody close!

              Sub-40:00 for 10K 17-03-13 Gainsborough 10K - 39:43

              Sub 88:00 for HM

               

              Scout7


              CPT Curmudgeon

                Chris, the fact that you're improving means that your runs are quality runs. I wouldn't rush things too much. You're doing good with the current training, stick with it. Getting back to the long runs at an easier pace..... I think this is fine for someone who is newer to running, or has never run that distance. If it's your first marathon, you don't really know what MP is anyway. However, a number of plans that I've seen will have you do your long run at a given distance easier the first couple times, then do it at MP. So you do get your MP runs in at the longer distances. However, it's probably not a good idea to try to run your first ever 16 miler at racing pace. But I certainly don't agree with running all of your long runs at a pace significantly lower than MP (assuming that is the race you're training for....A lot of this will vary based on your desired distance).
                dillydoodles


                  And in the news, a gang of 30-something year old men beat up a 55-year old woman today. When asked why, they stated, "Because we can! We enjoy flaunting the superiority of our minds and bodies. Besides, the old lady doesn't run 2000 miles a year, so how dare her post anything around here!" Have fun boys, then please report to your corral. Wink
                  Could you put the links back up to the articles please?? I read them but didn't save. Nothing wrong with linking to articles as far as I am aware.
                  Chris, here are the links. If you read the articles again, just don't tell the guys. Apparently the articles are sadly lacking any value. I thought they were informative ... but I'm just a new runner. 1. Understanding Pace Exertion 2. Comparing Workout Efforts 3. Cycling Running Energy 4. The Right-Effort Question 5. The Scheduling Problem 6. Racing and Specificity 7. The Five Racing Abilities I hate to add any more fuel, but I find the elitist attitude of some people hard to swallow. I enjoy running. Getting tromped on is not fun though so obviously I'm in the wrong place. You win!
                  Scout7


                  CPT Curmudgeon

                    Huh? I'm confused........


                    A Dance with Monkeys

                      Niagra, did somebody beat you up over these links? They look great to me at first glance. I did not see the post that you then removed, but I did think it interesting that there was a thread with this title around the same time that the post appeared over on the other message board, so I figured this would be a great discussion. I think the only person doing any beating up over here is JK. And he's just bananas Wink Evil grin Now let's all get out there and run. Run hard!
                        Huh? I'm confused........
                        Okay then it's not just me.

                        Runners run.

                          And in the news, a gang of 30-something year old men beat up a 55-year old woman today. When asked why, they stated, "Because we can! We enjoy flaunting the superiority of our minds and bodies. Besides, the old lady doesn't run 2000 miles a year, so how dare her post anything around here!" I hate to add any more fuel, but I find the elitist attitude of some people hard to swallow. I enjoy running. Getting tromped on is not fun though so obviously I'm in the wrong place. You win!
                          I'm not sure if this is directed at me. If it is, I'm sorry, Niagara, for being fast(-ish). I hadn't read your articles because you deleted them. I was trying to share what I thought, to respond to Chris and JK, and also try to clarify my own thinking on the matter. I have never thought any of your posts were silly or uninformed. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Cheers! Modified to add: Here we go again, it seems! 4 posts in 30 seconds...! Beating you up... I think we were just caught off guard by your hostility? Undecided P.S. (again) The last line in your articles seems to summarize briefly what it took me a relative novel (and a bit of bragging Roll eyes ) to write: "In the final analysis, you will adapt to the stress of effort, not pace. The effort of the workout should be sufficient to build your ability. Therefore, our discipline is to repeat the exertion structure of the workout. If your pace improves within that structural context, you know your ability is growing." Good stuff!


                          Prophet!

                            i'm also confused...i see no evidence for elitism from 'the boys' in any of their posts in this thread nor any other threads..they are just putting in their .02 on the subject..What's great about this site is in fact the lack of elitism by our resident 'fastish' runners... I am also a new runner having ran consistently for only 10 months...i am in sponge mode, i take in everything...i love reading all the different perspectives on training, im going to try each one and find out what works for me, to get me running longer and faster. Besides, these fast boys are too skinny to do any tromping anyways Big grin , so run easy, run hard, or just run...
                              I hate to add any more fuel, but I find the elitist attitude of some people hard to swallow. I enjoy running. Getting tromped on is not fun though so obviously I'm in the wrong place. You win!
                              With all due respect ... what are you talking about? I'm the first to pop off if I sense a whiff of elitism. In fact, that noise you just heard was a chorus of dozens of groans from those who know what I'm talking about. But it ain't here, rarely ever on this board, and not one word of it in this thread. Not one word. Trust me on this one. ------------------------------------------ Thanks for re-posting the articles, by the way. Since I haven't read them, I wasn't properly prepared to beat up on you, and I was feeling left out. (See, that was a joke. If you heard it in person, you'd laugh. I'm funny. No, really.) Smile
                              E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
                              -----------------------------

                                I blame Jeff. Modified to add: Evil grin

                                Runners run.

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