Okay, Jeff I think you and I are basically saying that same thing....but interpreting HM pace to mean different things.  When I see HM pace, I think to myself "What could I run a half marathon race at if I tapered for this weekend".  I think my pace from Tom King is a fair representation of the fitness I'm at now.  So when you were talking about 4-5 miles at HM pace, I interpret that literally at that pace....not "effort".  I don't think I'm as good at quantifying a hard "effort" that well.  So I really try to focus on pace when I do speedwork.  Easy days, I base on what feels easy.  But maybe since I do so few hard days, I just am not as familiar with what is the correct effort.   1/2 marathon racing to me just feeling like riding the razor's edge...during my PR run, I really don't think I could have run more than 5 seconds faster than I did.  Probably the best race I've had in my life.  Hell, from 10k on I was essentially setting a PR at each distance.  That pace was faster than my 10k, 15k, and 10 mile PR's. 

I just think we're coming out this from different angles.  You with your philosophical mind, and me with my corporate black and white, literal interpretations.  

Tempo is traditionally as DB says, a pace you can handle for an hour.  The thing is, in recent history, elites have done what they call long tempo runs.  Well, when you can cover a HM in an hour, you need a name for a MP run.  It gets confusing.

Again, for some of us, this definition is completely meaningless.  I don't know what pace I can handle for an hour.  I know what effort I can handle.

 

Yeah that makes sense. See you in a bit. It's raining like a bitch out there.

 Don't be scared of a little Thunder.

Is it really that hard to figure out that the effort you are willing to put forth in a workout will dictate the pace?

No, and I provided exactly how I do it.  I'm pointing out the issues that we face when having these discussions, and the pitfalls to be aware of.

But I have no idea what my pace is, because I don't wear a watch, or even know how really how far I ran.

Well, if someone is looking for another person to present paces to them on a silver platter, running is not the sport for them.  The cold hard truth is these things come with experience. I don't need to know what my tempo pace is on any given day.  Tempos are a very small part of my workouts.  Words are thrown out like comfortably hard, and people can try that idea and see what it brings them.  They will know by the end of the workout if they did it right or if they failed.  The thing with running is how you cope with that info the next day. You can either give up and hit the couch, or you can adjust accordingly the next time trying to get it right.  Daniels has charts for this stuff, but I would call them aggressive. Most of the time though, I just note how I feel, what my HR is and pace is secondary.  Again, it's not complicated.

I don't see the pitfall.  We are here doing the same thing.  We have a mutual goal of running 2000 miles in a year or we are here to hope for that mileage and see what we can glean from the group.  I just don't see a problem. 

Maybe I'll get there but seriously some days I think "man I am dragging ass" and I am flying and some days I think I am flying and I am dragging.  Sometimes within the same workout.  Yesterday I turned a corner and went "Well, no need to slow down just because you turned on to another street" but in reality I sped up.  For some reason I have a huge disconnect with my body right now. 

effort is what you put in.

pace/time/mileage is what you get out.

some days you have to put more in to get the same output that is easy on other days.

that's just life.

Somewhere, I missed the memo that stated that the swamp is for new runners.  I thought that maybe the point of this thread was to attempt to learn from one another.  I do not see any beginners posting in this thread. 

I do actually talk to and post to new runners.  Unfortunately, the whole slow down, run more message is not taken to well.  Usually, a new runner does not need to do tempo runs since they have this uncanny ability to try to do them everyday.  And they are not posting here asking any questions in this thread. I would guess that concern over newbie runners is for naught in the swamp.  Let's face it, without a bunch of lurking to figure out background and context, this place is scary.

Oh, and I am, and probably always will be, a mileage whore.  Not much I can do to fix that at this point.

Usually, a new runner does not need to do tempo runs since they have this uncanny ability to try to do them everyday.

 Willa, threads like this are most helpful to someone like me who has been running for a couple of years, yet has no idea what each effort level should feel like.  I also have this ability you state above. 

Until I read today's HM Pace workout explanation, On tempo days I always was trying to hit my HM PR pace of 8:30- 8:45 (my HM PR pace is 8:48 BTW)  for 3-5 miles and coming home sore.  HM effort for 5 miles feels like it's easily doable atleast once a week.