Beginners and Beyond

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Thoughts on this HM training plan? (Read 50 times)

Jill.


Penguin Power!

    I'm looking for a HM plan that builds up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-45 miles per week.  I've found this one: http://www.digitalrunning.com/intermediate-half-marathon-training/ but I'm not really sure what to think of it.  The fact that it just builds mileage for the first 14 weeks with no cutbacks at all doesn't seem to make sense to me.  But I am a complete newbie when it comes to this stuff, so I figured I'd ask the experts :-)

     

    I like that the plan is 5 days per week because that's what I've been running lately.  I also like that it builds the long run to 15 miles because I putter out during the last couple of miles of the race and need to build my endurance.  I'm not sure what to make of the speed work aspect of it.  Any feedback would be much appreciated.  If you know of any other plans that might work for me please let me know!

    Upcoming Races: Run as One 4M (4/24) * Japan Run 4M (5/8) * Brooklyn Half (5/21) 

    Toronto


    Seven Deadly Shins

      Looks OK to me.  You can do cutbacks yourself every 4 weeks - Just reduce your long run distance to previous 4-week period's level.

       

      I have never done two-mile cruise intervals; I prefer uninterrupted tempo runs instead, but that would work too.

       

      good luck!

      Docket_Rocket


        I think 18 weeks is too long for a HM training but it looks OK.  Check the Ryan Hall plans (long one has more mileage).  I have heard good things about it.  Another one to check is the Hanson's HM plans.

        Damaris

         

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        kristin10185


        Skirt Runner

          Following. I need a solid spring HM plan that puts me at a good mileage base when it is done to transition into marathon training (and I think that's what you're doing too!)

          PRs:   5K- 28:16 (5/5/13)      10K- 1:00:13 (10/27/13)    4M- 41:43 (9/7/13)   15K- 1:34:25  (8/17/13)    10M- 1:56:30 (4/6/14)     HM- 2:20:16 (4/13/14)     Full- 5:55:33 (11/1/15)

           

          I started a blog about running :) Check it out if you care to

          Jack K.


          uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sǝʇᴉɹʍ ʇI

            I have had good luck with the Ryan Hall 10 week plan. Four minute PR twice.

            LRB


              Any plan that has Sunday as an off day would go right in the garbage in my house. lol

               

              I suppose you could move each day up one so that Monday and Friday are your off days as Sunday is just too valuable of a day for most hobby joggers to take off.

               

              The amount of speed work versus total weekly mileage for the first 5 or 6 weeks is a concern.  For instance the second week has you running 22 miles, 4 of which are at tempo pace.

               

              I am not certain one needs cut-back weeks when running moderate mileage but that can be done simply by taking an extra day off here or there if you feel you need it.

               

              Since you are not new to running it may work well for you.  I would add more miles in there at the beginning but otherwise it looks okay.

              Love the Half


                I'm not a fan for a whole host of reasons.

                 

                I'm suspicious of any plan that has constant increases.  Given what I have seen hundreds of times in message board threads, that's a good way to get hurt.  To me, the better way is increase by what will likely be a good bit more than the nonsense 10% rule and then hold at that mileage for a few weeks.

                 

                For example, increase from 20 to 25 miles.  On the week you increase, no speed work.  The next week is a moderate training week with modest speed.  The week after that is a hard ass week with two hard speed sessions.  The next week is a cutback mileage week with modest speed session.  (Note that modest speed session doesn't mean to reduce the intensity of the workout - just the volume.  So, for example, a hard speed session might be 6 x 800 while a modest speed session might be 4 x 800).  The week after that is an increase week with no speed work.  Etc.

                 

                I also think it's crazy to start you with a first VO2max session of 4 x 1,200 with 400 meter recovery jogs.  It's worse with only a 1 mile warm up.  First, that's a damned hard workout.  I don't do 1,200's until midway through a cycle and I don't do 1,200's with 400 recovery jogs until near the end.  Those are brutal.  Second, given that VO2max intervals shouldn't last longer than about 5 minutes, 1,200's will be too far for anyone who runs VO2max sessions slower than a 6:42 pace.

                 

                Next, what they call a "high aerobic" pace is roughly a marathon pace.  Unlike many, I think marathon pace running has an important place in a half marathon plan.  But, as a race nears, your training should be more and more race specific.  I don't see any workouts in that plan that are half marathon pace specific.  I suppose what they call your threshold pace could be done around your HM pace but those happen early in the cycle rather than later.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm a huge fan of threshold training but I think the bulk of it should be done in the early and middle weeks with HM specific workouts as the race approaches.  A workout of 8 miles at marathon pace is not what you want to be doing two weeks out from a half marathon.

                 

                So no, I'm not a fan of this plan.

                 

                Having said that, if you use it will you run a faster half marathon?  Probably.  Hell, if you aren't doing much speed work, it doesn't much matter what speed work you do as long as you do something.  But, I think there are much better ways to prepare for a half marathon than this plan.

                Short term goal: 17:59 5K

                Mid term goal:  2:54:59 marathon

                Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

                music_girl117


                  LtH, can you elaborate on the benefits of running at marathon pace when training for a half marathon?  Is it just because it's a "strenuous but not too strenuous" pace compared to HM pace?  And are you also saying that the early part of the plan should have marathon pace workouts along with faster stuff (tempo, maybe intervals) and that both of those should "give way" to HM-pace workouts as the race gets closer?

                   

                  Like the OP, I am looking to do similar mileage while training for my half in April, and I have not been overly formal with my workouts for previous HMs, so I too am interested to hear a bit more about the philosophy of how to train for one.

                  PRs:

                  5k - 22:53  (May 2015)

                  10k - 50:00 (unofficial; part of 20k race, March 2015); 50:33 (official; July 2016)

                  HM - 1:48:40  (Apr. 2015)

                  MothAudio


                    LTH made some good observations. I like the fact the plan [unlike others] actually has you doing a good bit of threshold or quality aerobic workouts, that's critical for the half marathon. But like previously mentioned I would do some tweaking. I wouldn't have a problem the Vo2 workouts early in the schedule BUT this assumes, for a runner like me, you've been doing speedwork or racing 5ks. I would also trim the distance to 800-1000m or keep in the 4-5:00 range and I would be more forgiving on the recovery intervals early in the schedule.

                     

                    I would also transition through the schedule like this; Vo2max > tempo / threshold > race specific / speed endurance. You want to work on your speed early * and then gradually perform slower BUT longer repeats as you progress toward your [half] goal race. Three weeks out I'd schedule a MAX workout that has you running your longest race pace workout, whether it's continuous [tempo run] or interval style with short rest intervals [7x1000m w/600m recovery]. I personally use 1000m repeats early in the schedule and then progress to longer intervals [2000-5000m] as I more through the schedule but that's more for an experienced runner. The last 4-5 weeks you want to target a race pace workout every week as you gradually extend the volume that is appropriate for your overall mileage / level of experience. For a intermediate runner your MAX workout could be 7x1000m @ race pace and for a more experienced runner that could be 3x5000m @ race pace.

                     

                    * Another strategy is to work on your speed prior to your schedule [and run some 5ks] and then trim the schedule back several weeks and transition into tempo-based workouts. This is what I do for my 10-12 week half schedules.

                     Youth Has No Age. ~ Picasso / 1st road race: Charleston Distance Run 15 Miler - 1974 / profile

                     

                    MothAudio


                      LtH, can you elaborate on the benefits of running at marathon pace when training for a half marathon?  Is it just because it's a "strenuous but not too strenuous" pace compared to HM pace?  And are you also saying that the early part of the plan should have marathon pace workouts along with faster stuff (tempo, maybe intervals) and that both of those should "give way" to HM-pace workouts as the race gets closer?

                       

                      Like the OP, I am looking to do similar mileage while training for my half in April, and I have not been overly formal with my workouts for previous HMs, so I too am interested to hear a bit more about the philosophy of how to train for one.

                       

                      It's a safe method to transition into tempo-based workouts. Instead of the classic 1x3 miles @ tempo pace [faster than HM pace] you do slower [MP] but longer workouts that support the same energy system. This assumes you race [to your ability] vs jog the marathon as MP isn't what I call "easy". You could mix these with shorter / faster tempo workouts throughout the schedule depending on what you need to address [say more endurance]. Or you could add some MP miles to your weekend long runs to add more strength to your overall program or to just to add variety and spice up your [otherwise] boring long runs. I would front-load these in the 1st half of my schedule and then [as noted] transition into more race specific workouts as you get closer to your goal race.

                       

                      I personally wouldn't do any MP workouts the last 4-6 weeks of my schedule for two [2] reasons. It's doesn't sharpen you for the pace you intend to run and it takes anyway valuable resources that could be put to better use in your quality workouts or tune up races. Better IMO is do your long runs in the last 1/2 of your schedule @ a comfortable aerobic pace and then perform race pace [or slightly faster] during your quality speed-endurance workout. Another option is to include that into your weekend long run, basically making IT your quality workout. Instead of 12-15miles @ aerobic pace you run several mile warm up, 5-9 miles @ roughly race pace and then several mile cool down. This approach might serve someone on a tight schedule can't devote several hours to a mid-week, medium-long run.

                       Youth Has No Age. ~ Picasso / 1st road race: Charleston Distance Run 15 Miler - 1974 / profile

                       

                      Love the Half


                        First, great stuff from Moth and while I might differ from him slightly on the details, I agree completely with him on the principles.  I'm not sure the details matter all that much anyway.

                         

                        At any rate, my thought on marathon pace runs during half marathon training.  Marathon pace runs require you to focus for a long time.  I did a workout involving 7 x 1,000 yesterday.  Sure, it was hard but each interval lasted less than 4 minutes.  Thus, I didn't have to maintain my focus for a long time.  I could focus for those four minutes and then relax during my recovery jog.  Even tempo runs, while difficult, only require you to maintain your mental focus for 30-40 minutes.  But, come race day and you will have to focus for a long time.  What's worse is that it is during the middle sections of the race, when you have been on your feet for over an hour, that it is easiest to lose your mental focus.  When you do that, it's not like you fall apart and start jogging but it is really, really easy to start running 5-10 seconds slower per mile in that part of a race.

                         

                        I looked at one of my half marathons from a few years back.  My overall pace was 6:44 but I ran Miles 8 and 9 both in 6:52 and Mile 10 in 6:46.  Given that I started running 6:38-6:40 after that, I have a hard time believing that my slowing in that section was physiological.  Rather, I think fatigue had begun to set in, I was nowhere near the finish, and I lost some of my focus.

                         

                        Marathon pace runs as part of a half marathon training program will last 8-12 miles.  On a 10 mile marathon pace run, assuming a marathon pace of 8:00 (which would mean a half marathon pace of perhaps 7:30), you will have to maintain your focus for 1:20:00.  If your marathon pace is 10:00, you'll have to maintain focus for 1:40:00.  (I should note that I wouldn't do a marathon pace run of longer than 90 minutes during half marathon training.  Any longer than that and your recovery time could be unacceptably long).  Marathon pace runs of that length don't beat the hell out of you physiologically but, if you start losing your mental focus after 45 minutes, it is very, very easy to lose 5-10 seconds per mile - just like you lose those 5-10 seconds per mile in a race.

                         

                        We talk a lot about the physiological aspects of racing but we rarely talk about the mental aspects.  I think that forcing yourself to undergo some of the same mental stresses in training that you'll face on race day is enormously beneficial.

                         

                        I think marathon pace runs can also be useful when you're feeling a bit beat up from harder training or during a cutback week.  Too many people take a cutback week and do nothing but jog.  While you don't want to be putting seriously hard workouts into a cutback week, you don't want to completely ignore speed either.  A marathon pace run is a good way to put some speed into that week without it being a really hard workout.  Or, maybe you are feeling a bit worn out from the training and you just don't have a hard set of intervals or a long tempo run in you.  Fine.  Do a 7-8 mile marathon pace run rather than a 5-6 mile tempo run.  You'll feel good that you didn't completely ignore speed and, at the same time, you'll give your body a chance to recover until it can do a hard workout.

                        Short term goal: 17:59 5K

                        Mid term goal:  2:54:59 marathon

                        Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

                        Jill.


                        Penguin Power!

                          Thanks for all of the feedback guys!  I think I'm just going to focus on building my mileage to 30-35ish per week for now and then jump in with the ryan hall 10 week plan at the appropriate point.  Either for the NYC Half or the Brooklyn Half - to be determined.

                           

                          I've done research and found a park with a track that is closer to my apartment and doesn't involve running by two housing projects to get to  I'm excited to attempt speed work for the first time.  Is running/jogging the two miles to get there/back appropriate as a warm up and cool down for speed work?

                          Upcoming Races: Run as One 4M (4/24) * Japan Run 4M (5/8) * Brooklyn Half (5/21) 

                          LRB


                            Warm up and cool down length or duration  varies from person to person and usually depends on what one is comfortable with or sometimes a set amount of mileage that needs to be attained.

                             

                            The one thing we all agree upon where speed work is concerned is that there should be a warm-up.

                             

                            I prefer 3 miles but some people do just fine with half that, while some do more.

                            Toronto


                            Seven Deadly Shins

                              Anywhere from 1.5 to 2 miles would be OK as a warm-up in my view.  3 miles is pushing it IMO.

                               

                              Once you get to the track, running form drills and strides are a great speedwork starter.  Our coach had us do one circuit of bounders/hamstring extensions/high knees/butt kickers for about 20-25 metres each, then 4 strides of about 100 m each.

                               

                                Is running/jogging the two miles to get there/back appropriate as a warm up and cool down for speed work?


                              From the Internet.

                                Thanks for all of the feedback guys!  I think I'm just going to focus on building my mileage to 30-35ish per week for now and then jump in with the ryan hall 10 week plan at the appropriate point.  Either for the NYC Half or the Brooklyn Half - to be determined.

                                 

                                I've done research and found a park with a track that is closer to my apartment and doesn't involve running by two housing projects to get to  I'm excited to attempt speed work for the first time.  Is running/jogging the two miles to get there/back appropriate as a warm up and cool down for speed work?

                                 

                                That's about how far my track is from my house, works well for me.

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