Nonsense. I bag workouts all the time and I generally know very early in the workout whether it will be productive or not.
Productive is a relative term.
Each time my vdot value increased, so did my training paces. So what was my interval pace (close to 5k pace), eventually became my tempo pace (close to 10k pace), which you are obviously expected to hold for a longer time.
What was my "R" pace (close to 1 mile pace) became my interval pace, so a pace that I ran for a max of 800 meters twice in a workout, I was now expected to hold for 1000 to 1200 meters 4 to 6 times in a workout.
I cannot speak for anyone but myself on this, but it took time for me to nail my "new" training paces on a consistent basis. Until I was able to, I took what my body was giving me on any given day during a speed session.
So let's say an intended "I" pace workout of 6 X 1000's at 6:18, may have been run at 6:30, because that's the best I could muster. Or, an intended "R" pace workout of 8 X 400's at 5:45, were run at 5:58 etc.
I never really let it bother me that at times I was unable to or not ready to run at a specific pace during training because it was just a number. What was more important (for me) was completing the workout, and each time I did, my paces improved over a period of time.
My vdot value has increased again and you know what? I have not even looked at my new training paces because I will be starting all over again! Which is a good thing, but as you well know, it sucks too.
Are we there, yet?
Continuing to push through a workout like that is going to adversely affect subsequent workouts that week, and possibly even further down the schedule. Eventually it will catch up to you and you'll be forced to take a longer period easy or off to recuperate. If it's a matter of you don't want to put out the effort because you're tired or lazy, then push through it. If you can't hit the paces, then bag it.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Team TJ
Push through....bagging it can be become a dangerous habit
I absolutely agree with this, through personal experience.
Running for TJ because he can't.
Meaghan, when I say "all the time", I'm probably talking about once a month or so. Here is my thinking.
Every workout should have a purpose. For that matter, every run should have a purpose. When I start a workout, what is the purpose of that workout? I might be working on VO2max or I might be working on muscular strength or I might be working on my ability to use lactate as a fuel. Regardless, if I'm really struggling early in a workout, I can certainly slow down by a bunch and finish but I'm not going to get the full benefit of that workout. There is no way that I can run VO2max intervals at a 6:20 pace and get the same benefit as if I'm cranking 5:58's. Nor can I derive the same benefit from a 6:45 tempo run as I will from one at 6:25. Almost invariably, if I just bag it, turn it into an easy run, and come back the next day, I'll have a great workout. Then, I do get the full benefit of the workout. If I'm off by a few seconds, then OK but if I'm off by a bunch, there is little physiological reason to keep going.
Pushing through a workout on a bad day doesn't build mental toughness. Instead, it builds stubbornness and while running well does in fact require mental toughness, it also requires discipline. Trying to push through on a lousy day just doesn't make a whole lot of training sense. I'd rather wait a day so that I do get the full benefit of the workout than push through and get less than the full benefit. The person that pushes through, yeah, he'll think he's tougher but I'll be faster and that's what matters on race day.
Short term goal: 17:59 5K
Mid term goal: 2:54:59 marathon
Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life. (I started running at age 45).
Thanks for the reply,LtH.
I do agree that every workout should have a purpose. I guess in this case what I'm not 100% clear on is whether I was actually achieving the purpose of the workout (and should have continued) or not (and should have switched to an easy run).
My 3K pace (the pace I was supposed to be doing the repeats at) I estimate at about 7:15 (based on a 1.7 mile race I ran at 7:11 pace).
There would have been some slowing from that just based on the heat and humidity, so maybe 7:30 pace would have been reasonable?
The purpose of a hill workout is mainly to build strength and speed on hills, build leg strength and stride power, etc.
My repeats were all between 7:45-7:55 pace, so I didn't slow as the workout went on, the repeats were just either a bit too slow or a lot too slow, depending on how much you factor in heat/humidity. My 5K pace is around 7:40 (in perfect weather), so that's still a pretty solid pace for me, it's not like I was just jogging up the hills.
I am leaning towards thinking that I never should have started the workout-- I think my biggest mistake this week was just thinking I'd run a race on Saturday and not count it as a quality workout or change my training in any way to work around it. I would think I would know better by now, though apparently I don't. If someone came to me and said, 'hey, I want to do a race on Saturday but not change anything about my training this week, I still want to do 2 quality workouts plus a long run, and then I don't want to spend time on recovery, I just want to jump back in to my normal schedule', I would never tell them to do what I did.
Every workout should have a purpose. ... The person that pushes through, yeah, he'll think he's tougher but I'll be faster and that's what matters on race day.
Absolutely.
I've done a lot of racing lately, and started to notice my training runs becoming fatigued, tedious, blending together with no clear purpose. So this is day 2 of 2 URDs to just press the reset button, and I'm frantic to run again tomorrow. Rest days and recovery-paced days are just as important as quality workouts.
I have never followed a training plan and am asking this for future reference. If your pace is slower, but you're running in the same HR range as what you normally would be for a particular workout, aren't you still getting some of the benefits? Isn't that what "running by feel" is all about? I can see that with certain speed workouts you won't be getting the full benefits, but wouldn't you still be getting some benefit by running at the same HR range?
Eric
Labrat
Well timed thread.
I bagged my run yesterday after not hitting my pace in the first few intervals.
Wake up today congested, and with some other mild respiratory symptoms.
I'd say I made the right call. I was obviously starting to comedown with something.
Normally if you can't hit the paces there is a reason for it. Assuming its not that the paces are too aggressive, maybe its better to listen to your body and bag it for the day.
Of course you don't want that becoming a habit, but as a one off the rest will do you more good than pushing through when you really aren't feeling it.
5K 20:23 (Vdot 48.7) 9/9/17
10K 44:06 (Vdot 46.3) 3/11/17
HM 1:33:48 (Vdot 48.6) 11/11/17
FM 4:13:43 (Vdot 35.4) 3/4/18
Rabbit, there is a fallacy that getting your heartrate to "x" is all that matters. Here's a thought experiment. Suppose I gave you some kind of drug that made your heart beat "x" beats per minute for 30 minutes and you could just sit in the chair while it did so. Would you derive the same benefit as if you ran for 30 minutes with your heart beating at that rate? Of course not. There are many, many things that go into fitness other than just how strong your heart is. A whole lot of things can affect how fast your heart beats. That's why you won't find a single training plan from world class coaches that focuses exclusively on heartrate. Instead, they focus on paces, time on feet, and mileage. Still, even if you derived the same benefit aerobically, you won't derive the same benefit muscularly because you simply aren't working your muscles as hard.
Cat, that is a perfect illustration of how our bodies will tell us what to do if we are smart enough to listen. Your immune system will already be working hard to fight an infection before you have all of the symptoms and the last thing you need to be doing is cranking a seriously hard workout. Ironically, an easy run may actually help your body fight the infection.
Meaghan, when I say "all the time", I'm probably talking about once a month or so. Here is my thinking. Every workout should have a purpose. For that matter, every run should have a purpose. When I start a workout, what is the purpose of that workout? I might be working on VO2max or I might be working on muscular strength or I might be working on my ability to use lactate as a fuel. Regardless, if I'm really struggling early in a workout, I can certainly slow down by a bunch and finish but I'm not going to get the full benefit of that workout. There is no way that I can run VO2max intervals at a 6:20 pace and get the same benefit as if I'm cranking 5:58's. Nor can I derive the same benefit from a 6:45 tempo run as I will from one at 6:25. Almost invariably, if I just bag it, turn it into an easy run, and come back the next day, I'll have a great workout. Then, I do get the full benefit of the workout. If I'm off by a few seconds, then OK but if I'm off by a bunch, there is little physiological reason to keep going. Pushing through a workout on a bad day doesn't build mental toughness. Instead, it builds stubbornness and while running well does in fact require mental toughness, it also requires discipline. Trying to push through on a lousy day just doesn't make a whole lot of training sense. I'd rather wait a day so that I do get the full benefit of the workout than push through and get less than the full benefit. The person that pushes through, yeah, he'll think he's tougher but I'll be faster and that's what matters on race day.
+100
PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013
Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013
18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010
No more marathons
I have never followed a training plan and am asking this for future reference. If your pace is slower, but you're running in the same HR range as what you normally would be for a particular workout, aren't you still getting some of the benefits? Isn't that what "running by feel" is all about? I can see that with certain speed workouts you won't be getting the full benefits, but wouldn't you still be getting some benefit by running at the same HR range? Eric
My thought would be no - that might be the case if there are environmental factors (heat and humidity) or terrrain (steep grades) but if not one of those then it is probably not providing any workout benefit. It is an indication of not being recovered sufficiently from a prior workout, or of an illness (see catwoorgs post under yours).
Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey
Lordy, I hope there are tapes.
He's a leaker!
Rabbit, there is a fallacy that getting your heartrate to "x" is all that matters. Here's a thought experiment. Suppose I gave you some kind of drug that made your heart beat "x" beats per minute for 30 minutes and you could just sit in the chair while it did so. Would you derive the same benefit as if you ran for 30 minutes with your heart beating at that rate? Of course not. There are many, many things that go into fitness other than just how strong your heart is. A whole lot of things can affect how fast your heart beats. That's why you won't find a single training plan from world class coaches that focuses exclusively on heartrate. Instead, they focus on paces, time on feet, and mileage. Still, even if you derived the same benefit aerobically, you won't derive the same benefit muscularly because you simply aren't working your muscles as hard. Cat, that is a perfect illustration of how our bodies will tell us what to do if we are smart enough to listen. Your immune system will already be working hard to fight an infection before you have all of the symptoms and the last thing you need to be doing is cranking a seriously hard workout. Ironically, an easy run may actually help your body fight the infection.
LTH, thanks for the reply. I basically came to that conclusion as I was writing my first post, but was almost done with it so i figured I'd at least get confirmation.
bluesky, Thanks for the reply. I almost didn't post my original questions because i was coming to the same conclusions by the time I finished typing. I figured it would still be good to post it for confirmation though.
Why is everyone using the word "bag" instead of "quit" ?
I think whether you quit or push through is dependent on a lot of factors. Type of workout, goal race distance, weather, fatigue, etc.
Example: I had an 8 mile tempo run scheduled for today, 4 miles easy plus 4 at half marathon pace. I couldn't hold my HM pace beyond 2 miles. In this case I pushed through, 15 sec off pace in mile 3, and 30 seconds off in mile 4. I had to walk briefly during my cooldown, I was so fatigued and my HR was so high. I don't really know why today's workout was so tough, but I figure since I am marathon training (cumulative fatigue?), and I don't have enough room in my schedule to move quality workouts around, it was best to just push through and get the time on my feet.
PRs:
5k: 25:05 (Sep 2011) 10k: 51:57 (Aug 2012) half: 1:56:46 (May 2013) full: 4:09:46 (Jan 2016)
Resident Historian
In that situation, Paula, you essentially achieved the workout purpose in
- Length of run.
- Overall time on feet.@
- 6 of the 8 miles at right paces.
- And likely able to handle the next run,
, a recovery tomorrow or LR Sunday.
The last 2 miles - as you say - not sure why, but a minor miss
Neil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson