Beginners and Beyond

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Question about training paces under Pfitz (Read 44 times)

outoftheblue


    Prior to starting my Pfitz plan, I used the McMillian calculator to select my long, easy and recovery paces, using recent HM times to ball park it.  Ignoring the fast end of his ranges, and taking a conservative approach, I've being doing as follows:

     

    Long  --  10:40 to 11:10

    Easy  --  10:10 to 10:40; and

    Recovery  -- 11:20 to 11:50

     

    Using Pfitz, however, i get much slower times with the "easy" run being eliminated altogether in favor of the "general aerobic" run which is supposed to be slower than LR pace.  Using a goal MP of 10 mm (which is ambitious for me ) I get the following:

     

    Long -- 11 to 12 (Start at 20%, move to 10% of GMP)

    General Aerobic -- 11:30 to 12:30 (15 to 25% of GMP)

    Recovery -- 13:00+??  ("noticeably slower" than other runs)

     

    I'm OK with the LR pace, but for the rest, it seems like an awful lot of really slow running to me.  Other than speedwork, everything will at my current recovery pace or slower.  I'm not really sure I can maintain good form at a 12 mm.   Maybe using the % of MP breaks down for slower runners, as the delta is so much larger than if one was running a 6 mm MP?

     

    What say other Pfitz devotees?  Are you really doing your GA and recovery runs per his percentages?  I don't have/use a HR monitor, so his discussion of  using that metric isn't much help to me.

    Life is good.

    Jack K.


    uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sǝʇᴉɹʍ ʇI

      I really liked the Pfitz 18/55 plan. I don't think I broke down my paces quite that much. I treated my GA runs as a regular easy pace, sometimes a bit faster. The only time I consciously ran slower was on the recovery runs. For all of my long runs I ran them as progressions. For a 16 mile run I would run the first 4 miles at 9:00, next 4 at 8:50, and so on. I would try to finish hard (not too hard) to get my legs used to running with fatigue.  You will figure it out after the first few weeks.

      happylily


        I have used the book at least 14 times for my races, including the 18/55 plan, and I loved it. But honestly, I never read the part about calculating for the training paces. Too many calculations and I get impatient with it all. Instead, I have always turned to McMillan to guide me with my training paces. I'm a big fan of his when it comes to his predictions and suggested training paces. Based on your 10:00 goal pace, McMillan suggests an easy pace between 9:51-10:45. Long runs should not be slower than easy pace (or at least, not always, and not that much slower), they should encompass the easy pace range. In your case, the LR pace should be 9:53-11:09. And recovery is 10:53-11:41. Recovery pace is the one pace I don't really pay attention to. If I need to run it slower, I will, and if I feel good, I allow myself to run faster, more in the easy range. It depends how I feel. The paces suggested by Pfitz for your 10:00 goal pace seem much too slow to me. If I were you, I would first try McMillan, and if you find yourself struggling during training, then switch to what Pfitz prescribes. My feeling is that Pfitz is talking to much faster runners than you and me and these guys have a much wider spread between training paces. Slower runners don't have to have huge gaps between easy/LR/recovery. But it's just my opinion, and I've been wrong often. Keep that in mind. 

        PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

        18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010

        Docket_Rocket


          I don't think Pfitz describe paces but rather % of HR max ( but I don't have the book with me ).  I use his % of HR recommendation table instead. I use Pfitz paces all the time and they end up being smack in the middle of his % of HR recommendations.  For your pace, I don't think Pfitz recommends 13mm for your LRs. I am slower than you (but close to you) and my recovery pace is 12mm.  LR pace is around 1130.

          Damaris

           

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          LRB


            McMillan suggests an easy pace between 9:51-10:45.

             

            I have not tried Pfitz but just to speak on the range for easy pace when running easy as an effort depending on the day and where I am in training it could be at the low range or the high end.

             

            In my first year or two I tried to run a specific pace but fortunately learned how counter-productive that is because you are essentially forcing the issue.

             

            By running at effort instead using the numbers above on any given day I could run 10:45, 9:51 or any where in between.  This could be separate runs or even during a run as I warm up.  Whereas in my infinite ignorance those early years I would try to run 9:51, but could not understand why it was so difficult two days removed from an 18 mile run let's say. 

             

            In the years since where easy running is concerned I let the pace take care of itself....with the possible exception of long runs for obvious reasons.

             

            It is a little bit trickier on the treadmill but I usually just go slower as a precaution unless I am feeling really good.

            outoftheblue


              Thanks everyone.  I am probably over-thinking this.  I have a history of running too fast and Pfitz's section describing pacing for his various types of runs got me thinking.

               

              Jack -- I've been treating the GA runs as easy runs too.  It's good to know that it worked out for you and I'll probably keep doing the same.

               

              Lily -- I agree that the recovery run is tough.  I really don't enjoy running that slow, but I realize I need to be careful to save my legs for his harder workouts too.  I sometimes question the value of these runs altogether and wonder if I wouldn't be better off cross training instead of shuffling along for 5 miles.

               

              Docket -- Pfitz does provide detailed information about pacing by HR, but I don't have a HR monitor.  His non-HR pacing advice is rather general -- "about 15 to 25 percent slower than marathon race pace" for GA runs.  I do think that these percentages breaks down for slower runners and is far less useful than HR.

               

              LRB --  Thanks for reminding of the virtues of running by perceived effort.  I need to trust that and not get caught up with pace formulas.  I also need to get off the TM more, which, as you point out, makes it harder to run by effort.

              Life is good.

              MothAudio


                I used Pfitz 4-5 times years ago before switching to Hudson / Canova [which flips the sequence]. What jumps out at me is the close proximity of the fast end of your easy run pace and MGP. I rarely run @ my MP, except during my marathon cycle. That's just too damn fast for a M.O.T.R. workout. GA and easy are the same, just different names. I refer to runs shorter than 12 miles as easy and call anything longer GA but the pace is in the same range. Obviously, once I begin adding quality to my 15-20+ milers then I would include the details for the quality segments: general aerobic + half marathon>marathon pace.

                 

                When I did Pfitz, I maintained the overall structure; race pace early followed by faster than race pace. l'd refer to my journals but that was pre-Garmin, so the only paces recorded were for my quality workouts or workouts that included quality segments. No easy run paces were documented.

                 

                Keep in mind that effort is more important than pace. Somedays you feel good and the pace is faster but the effort is the same.Other days the opposte is true. Keep it requires a good sense of perceived effort and the ability to be honest with yourself and not ran too fast on your easy run days.

                 

                I've only raced one 5k this year [23:49] and completed one 20 miler. The 5k works out to 7:39 pace. The 20 miler was @ 11:22 pace. Most of my recovery runs are @ 10:00-11:15 pace.  My easy run pace averages around 9:25 pace.

                 Youth Has No Age. ~ Picasso / 1st road race: Charleston Distance Run 15 Miler - 1974 / profile

                 

                Love the Half


                  Just a few thoughts although I use Daniels rather than Pfitz.

                   

                  1.  Agree completely that your long run shouldn't be slower than your typical easy runs.  In fact, my overall pace on my long runs is frequently faster than my overall pace on easy runs because I throw a lot of quality work into my long runs.  Examples might be turning a long run into a progression run or a fast finish run or even something as simple as 12 x 1 minute accelerations with 1 minute recoveries after 10 miles of easy running.

                   

                  2.  I am a strong proponent of running by effort.  My easy pace on a hot day may be 30 seconds slower than my easy pace on a cool day yet perceived exertion is the same.  That's a crucial racing skill to develop.

                   

                  3.  My exception to that is when I do quality work.  I want to be very close to the paces I need to hit.  If I can't get close to those paces on a given day, I back off and just run easy that day.  Note that Daniels doesn't prescribe a range of paces for workouts but prescribes an exact pace.  Yeah, you do have to adjust based on wind, weather and whether you have some fatigue in your legs from hard training but if you can't come close, then you need some additional recovery.

                   

                  4.  Recovery jogs are crucial for me and if you do your hard workouts hard enough rather than just the "sort of hard" that too many do, then those recovery jogs won't seem slow at all.  Just my example.  My easy pace is around 7:45 but if I had a seriously hard workout the day before, my recovery jog the next morning may well start out in the 9:30 range and finish at maybe 8:45 and I really won't want to run any faster than that.  Still, I think the main reason many folks think recovery jogs are too easy is because they aren't doing their hard workouts hard enough.  Those should hurt.  A lot.

                  Short term goal: 17:59 5K

                  Mid term goal:  2:54:59 marathon

                  Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

                  Zelanie


                    OK, so I only used Pfitz for HM training, but I'm pretty sure I just used the pace numbers from the Daniels calculator.

                    outoftheblue


                      Thanks Moth, LTH and Zel.  A couple things I'm going to really take to heart from this discussion:

                       

                      1.  Really pay attention to perceived effort for non-quality workouts.

                       

                      2.  Make hitting the quality work-outs the priority.  The easy and recovery runs are important for time on the feet and to round out the week, but the goal is to get them done, not get hung up on paces.   Just make sure they are truly easy and recovery.

                       

                      The people on this forum are awesome. Thanks for all the insights.

                      Life is good.

                      Zelanie


                        So I was thinking about this a bit on my run today.  My easy pace has really gotten slow lately as I get further into my plan.  The Hansons say 1-2 minutes slower than GMP for easy runs, and feel free to run those on the slower end if you're not a veteran.  I will admit that I have days where I don't even hit that.  But it's not that it's hard work to run those paces.  It's that I don't feel like putting any mental effort at all into an easy run.  And once you factor in the first mile, which is going to be off the charts slow even on a good day, and the fact that the easy runs are short, the overall average is going to be slow even if I run the last half solidly in the middle of "easy range".

                         

                        If I have any mental energy available to focus on anything, I try to think about form.  Staying light and upright, energy coming from my hips and feet, feet moving in a smooth circle as I move forward.  And usually pace comes from that.  On bad days, though, I just fling myself at the ground grumpily, and the miles still get done.

                         

                        Does that make sense?