Beginners and Beyond

1

Speed work conundrum continued from Tuesdalies (Read 45 times)

workinprogress11


    First, thanks so much for the advice and suggestions so far. I thought I would bring this into its own thread in hopes of getting even more.

     

    On our last episode, Onemile posted the following and my response is below.

     




    "hmmm. Yeah. I have always been able to hit the paces for the Hansons speed work at 5k pace. And I often ran them a little bit faster than the chart if I could...(like Dave said, faster than I could actually run a 5k).

    It seems odd to me that you could hold MP for the workouts but not do the intervals. I found them equally hard.

    Maybe it's your treadmill calibration? Are you doing the MP runs on the TM or outside?"

     

    My response:

     

    I've done the MP workouts both on the treadmill and outside.

    I've been pondering this quite a bit. I have always struggled with shorter races and my 5k and 10k times have never been what they should be based on my half and marathon times. I do have a bit of asthma and also some vocal cord damage which may be coming into play more with the faster paces. I've also generally sucked at running on the treadmill. If the weather ever cooperates, I'd like to try the intervals outside and see if they go any better but haven't been able to do that yet.

    I don't have it in front of me, but I think my longest MP run is 10 miles. If I do that at goal pace and it's a walk in the park, should I still think about adjusting my goal if the speed work continues to suck? I don't want to overestimate my fitness and crash and burn, but could I be that special snowflake who can just run at a moderate pace for a long time?

    wcrunner2


    Are we there, yet?

      A few random thoughts:

       

      You may be one of those unusual runners who truly is a distance specialist and doesn't have the speed to perform as well in the shorter distances.

       

      It may be that you just don't run enough speed work at VO2Max pace OR FASTER, so you struggle with the faster pace when you do those workouts. Note that I do better with intervals than tempo of MP runs, but it can still take me several weeks or more before I can really hit my stride if I haven't been consistent with running intervals.

       

      It may even be that the TM isn't conducive to you hitting a normal stride for the pace you run intervals and that is slowing you down.

       2024 Races:

            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

            05/11 - D3 50K
            05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

       

       

           

         

         

        I've done the MP workouts both on the treadmill and outside.

        I've been pondering this quite a bit. I have always struggled with shorter races and my 5k and 10k times have never been what they should be based on my half and marathon times. I do have a bit of asthma and also some vocal cord damage which may be coming into play more with the faster paces. I've also generally sucked at running on the treadmill. If the weather ever cooperates, I'd like to try the intervals outside and see if they go any better but haven't been able to do that yet.

        I don't have it in front of me, but I think my longest MP run is 10 miles. If I do that at goal pace and it's a walk in the park, should I still think about adjusting my goal if the speed work continues to suck? I don't want to overestimate my fitness and crash and burn, but could I be that special snowflake who can just run at a moderate pace for a long time?

         

        Anything's possible. But from personal experience, I did a 10 mile MP workout for 4 straight weeks in advance of my marathon (program only called for 3), and didn't make my goal. I wouldn't say they were a walk in the park, but I did them.

        Are you able to run a HM at any point before your marathon? That might be a better indicator. But like I said earlier - everyone's race time equivalency curve is different. So you may just be much better at endurance than speed. And as I also said earlier, I'm certainly no expert.

         

        Also, I'm not sure why intervals would be easier or harder on treadmill vs. outside (excluding issues with treadmill calibration & weather).

        Dave

        happylily


          Where does the goal marathon pace come from? How did you pick it? Is it a time you've actually run in the past? If not, it may seem easy to run 10 miles at GMP, but 26.2 miles is another matter. You may have the wrong goal time, in that case, you are trying to run your intervals too fast as well.

          PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                  Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

          18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010

          happylily


            Just a thought: my plans often call for LRs with MP miles in them. Do you think you could run 18 with 10 or 12 at MP, at the end of a high mileage week? That is usually a good indicator for me that I have the right goal.

            PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                    Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

            18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010

            onemile


              Where does the goal marathon pace come from? How did you pick it? Is it a time you've actually run in the past? If not, it may seem easy to run 10 miles at GMP, but 26.2 miles is another matter. You may have the wrong goal time, in that case, you are trying to run your intervals too fast as well.

               

              I am wondering this also.

               

              Also, what happens that makes you have to slow down your intervals? You can't catch your breath?  You want to puke? Your legs give out?

              workinprogress11


                My goal for this marathon is simply to beat my PR from October 2013 so I'm training at those paces. I do need to find a race to run about 6 weeks prior to lock in goal pace.

                 

                It is always the lungs that give out.   The legs are fine.

                 

                Tonight i had 7 with 6 at MP and it went great.

                Docket_Rocket


                  The lungs giving out is how I feel during any non easy run.  I have not been able to replicate my short distance paces ever since the asthma diagnosis as the asthma always comes into play the faster I run (even though my legs are not even challenged since they can go much faster than my lungs allow me).  It could be that your asthma and/or vocal cord damage is coming into play.

                   

                  I would run a HM (even though for me that is not a perfect predictor for the reasons I mentioned, but for most people it is) or a 10 mile race and go from there.  10 @ MP during an 18 miler, as Lily suggests is a brutal workout.  If you are still feeling like a walk in the park then, I think your goal is not out of reach.  Good luck!

                  Damaris

                   

                  As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

                  Fundraising Page

                  happylily


                    My goal for this marathon is simply to beat my PR from October 2013 so I'm training at those paces. I do need to find a race to run about 6 weeks prior to lock in goal pace.

                     

                    It is always the lungs that give out.   The legs are fine.

                     

                    Tonight i had 7 with 6 at MP and it went great.

                     

                    It could be the asthma, but it could also be that your fitness is not at the necessary level yet. Do you have any indication that you are in the same shape you were in 2013? I know that I could not run like I did in the spring of 2013 because I have lost fitness. Many things indicate that. You can continue using your goal MP if you want and adjust the speed intervals to something you can manage, but that is still challenging. Then do a half , or a 10 miler, or even a 10K (mine suck so I would not use that), 5 or 6 weeks prior to your goal race and decide if you want to change your goal pace. Good luck!

                    PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                            Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                    18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010