Beginners and Beyond

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How important is aerobic/anerobic threshold training?? (Read 113 times)


Will run for scenery.

    Can't rebake a sofflee : haha.  Hadn't heard that one.

     

    I had to re-grill my chicken tonight.  Coals flamed up when I wasn't looking, made it all creosote-y and charred and nasty.  So I peeled it, washed off the nastiness, slathered it with sauce and (kinda) salvaged it. The wine helped a lot.

     

    There's a metaphor in there somewhere, but I'd like SRL's opinion on what it is. And Moth's. kalerunner, not so much.

     

    But I guess there's no use crying over spilled milk.  Unless it is spilled in the carpet of your car and you don't catch it in time.  That starts smellin' real nasty, real fast. On account of the lactic acid. Or is it lactate ?

     

    Carry on.....

    Stupid feet!

    Stupid elbow!

    MrNamtor


      might make a difference if it's fat or not fat.

       

      Anyway can you believe i write crap like that and I don't even drink?

      Birdwell


         

         

        One thing that I really miss about the old RW, although i wasn't there long, was the really and truly magical synergy between Brad, SRL, Mike, and George. I know that MJ5 is knowledgeable, and that Lily and Damaris have a lot of wisdom and that we have great and even an elite runner or two amongst us. So I do not mean to omit anyone in this statement.


        But we had LTH, SRL, Moth and wcrunner, and these 4 guys are so different and come from completely different places. And the reasons they run are different. And the reasons they are great are different. And their attitudes towards running are all different.

         

        I may be wrong but i don't think these guys like each other or ever did, and the rest of us have opinions about each of these guys as well that may or may not be purely positive.  But nevertheless, the threads that would come out of the discussions/disagreements or whatever were, in my opinion, priceless.

         

        I wish that hadn't disintegrated.  But nothing lasts forever and you can't, as John Lennon said of the Beatles, rebake a souffle. And so it goes.

         

        Just some thoughts. I'm going to read these comments and reply/ask follow up questions tomorrow.

         

        Anyway, carry on all Big grin

         

         

        But there are great discussions like that here at RA!!!!!!!!

        Have you been to the main forums?

        You have people there like Jeff, Spaniel, the wizard himself, Nobby, and tons of others that I can't even think of right now.

         

        Don't be afraid to venture out and explore! There are brilliant world class athletes and coaches on the main forums ready and willing to help.

        If you stay stuck in your comfort zone, you'll never know what you can really do.

           

           

          But there are great discussions like that here at RA!!!!!!!!

          Have you been to the main forums?

          You have people there like Jeff, Spaniel, the wizard himself, Nobby, and tons of others that I can't even think of right now.

           

          Don't be afraid to venture out and explore! There are brilliant world class athletes and coaches on the main forums ready and willing to help.

          If you stay stuck in your comfort zone, you'll never know what you can really do.

          +100

           

          Actually, I think SRL was here before he spent some time on RWOL. And wcrunner has ventured out and is learning from the experienced runners on RA.

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


          Hip Redux

             

             

            But there are great discussions like that here at RA!!!!!!!!

            Have you been to the main forums?

            You have people there like Jeff, Spaniel, the wizard himself, Nobby, and tons of others that I can't even think of right now.

             

            Don't be afraid to venture out and explore! There are brilliant world class athletes and coaches on the main forums ready and willing to help.

            If you stay stuck in your comfort zone, you'll never know what you can really do.

             

            +1

             

            I poke around and quickly realize that these people know a crap load more than I do about running.  I asked a question earlier this year and got some good suggestions about how to work my low mileage.

             

            And you did get some solid advice in this thread already, too.

             

            Love the Half


              Let me clarify something.  have enormous respect for both wcrunner (George) and MothAudio (Mike).  I have said on numerous occasions that, while I admire what elite athletes do I don't find it "inspiring" because they are doing something not remotely approachable for the average person.  The following will make me a heartless bastard but I'm not inspired by those with "inspiring" stories either.  Everyone has had to overcome some kind of hardship.  The guy who is pushing someone in a wheelchair is no more inspiring than the career soldier who gets his arm blown off in Afghanistan, comes home to find himself being discharged from the only job he knows, and still figures out a way to change careers in a way to support his family.  And he's no more inspiring than the woman who was sitting at home some evening with a gun in her hand wondering why she shouldn't blow her brains out but called a friend, subsequently sought treatment, and later opened a suicide prevention center.  I do, however, find what Mike and George have done inspiring.

               

              They have accomplished what very, very few will accomplish.  I had a bit of fun stirring the pot over on RWOL the other day by starting a thread titled, "Welcome to Running; Here's Why You'll Quit."  I know that 75% of all people who start heading out the door will quit in their first year and I know that over 90% will quit within five years.  I know that because only 7-8% of all American adults exercise vigorously for more than 20 minutes, 3 or more times per week.  Mike and George have run for decades.  Mike even had a serious problem that knocked him out of running for a long time yet he came back.  When I look at them, I see the runner I want to be.  I want to be the guy who says, "I started running 30 years ago."

               

              That doesn't mean I always agree with them.  I'm a lawyer and a college professor so I enjoy debate.  I like to stir the pot and get discussions going even if folks have strong disagreements with me.  I firmly believe that the best way to approach whatever "truth" may be out there is to have people on various sides of an issue vigorously arguing from their position.  In the words of General George S. Patton, "if everyone's thinking the same thing, someone isn't thinking."  He expected his staff officers to speak up if they disagreed with him or with other staff officers.  However, I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to disagree.

               

              Mike to some extent and George to a larger extent have disagreed with me on may occasions but they have done it in what I think is the right way.  They have questioned my arguments.  They have asserted that my arguments are based on incomplete or inconsistent data or that the premises supporting my arguments are incorrect or incomplete or that the conclusions I draw are not supported by the premises I cite.  They might argue that I am over-generalizing or that I am trying to apply my experience to others as if my experience is universal.  They may point out data that I missed.  All of those are good ways to attack an argument and I appreciate the manner in which they approach it.  Hell, I love arguing with George and if I ever get a chance to argue with him over a couple of drinks, I'd love to do so and I'm buying.  Same with Mike

               

              SRL, conversely, made the arguments personal.  He directed comments at me personally rather than just attacking my arguments.  You can go back and look and you will see that I rarely respond to what I consider nothing more than flame baiting.  Indeed, the only time I appeared to respond, SRL spent a day venting his spleen at some troll who wasn't really me.  I might add that it was quite amusing for me to watch a tech guy get Teo'd.  You can attack my arguments all day and I'll enjoy a good back and forth with you but I absolutely refuse to respond to a personal attack.  The reality is that your like or dislike for a person should not form a part of your opinion as to the validity of that person's argument.  Responding to a personal attack only drags the conversation further into the muck and I just won't go there.  I'm sometimes curious as to whether my lack of response frustrated him and a few others or whether they had a, "yeah, I told him" attitude and convinced themselves that they had put me in my place.  Whatever.  They're entitled to believe whatever they want.  

               

              But, time for important stuff.  One of my former students asked me to be the guest speaker at a Memorial Day service at a local cemetery that serves as the final resting place for any number of fallen service members.  I feel wholly inadequate for the task.  Interestingly enough, I will be entering the Retired Reserve on June 15 so this will be one of my last official acts in the military.  This is the kind of thing that is way, way more important than running. and I need to get ready.  See ya out there.

              Short term goal: 17:59 5K

              Mid term goal:  2:54:59 marathon

              Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

              happylily


                I have nothing to add to this discussion, except that I have greatly benefited from the examples of MothAudio, wcrunner and later, LTH.

                 

                I have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to running. I do not read about running, and in general, I have little interest in methods. I just run. I run too fast a pace (for me) most of the time and when I'm tired, I run slow. That is my method and I'm fully aware it is completely wrong. But it's what keeps me running. Shamefully, I admit that our three sages' good advice is often wasted on me.

                 

                However, all three men have inspired me to race, to be the best racer that I can be. I train like a moron, but I race with my heart because of them. I am hugely grateful to them because of that and I have always enjoyed their posts, whatever the topic was. I have nothing but great respect for all three. They are very different from each other and I love that. They are awesome individuals. I know SRL much less, but I've heard of his experience and I'm sure he has lots of knowledge as well. Sadly, I was never able to create a bond with him, and maybe that was my own fault.

                 

                That's all I had to say.

                PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                        Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010

                B-Plus


                  I have nothing to add to this discussion, except that I have greatly benefited from the examples of MothAudio, wcrunner and later, LTH.

                   

                  I have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to running. I do not read about running, and in general, I have little interest in methods. I just run. I run too fast a pace (for me) most of the time and when I'm tired, I run slow. That is my method and I'm fully aware it is completely wrong. But it's what keeps me running. Shamefully, I admit that our three sages' good advice is often wasted on me.

                   

                  However, all three men have inspired me to race, to be the best racer that I can be. I train like a moron, but I race with my heart because of them. I am hugely grateful to them because of that and I have always enjoyed their posts, whatever the topic was. I have nothing but great respect for all three. They are very different from each other and I love that. They are awesome individuals. I know SRL much less, but I've heard of his experience and I'm sure he has lots of knowledge as well. Sadly, I was never able to create a bond with him, and maybe that was my own fault.

                   

                  That's all I had to say.

                   

                  +1. Knowledge-wise, I don't have much to offer. I just like to run. Move one foot forward and keep repeating. Wait, what was the question?


                  No more marathons

                    I believe that LTH got all the technical detail right – and all of that stuff is extremely important to Ryan Hall, Dan Ritzenhein, Kara Goucher and Shalane Flanagan and their coaches and training staff.

                     

                    But, with very few exceptions, most of us on RA are not making a living on running – that makes us all hobby joggers.  Some of us have more natural ability, and some of us work harder, but it’s still a hobby.

                     

                    As with any hobby, there is an improvement curve that starts flat, shows a high level of improvement, and then levels out.  To keep bumping up the curve you need to throw in a new level of stress.  And for the first 4 or 5 years of running that can be just about anything that doesn’t result in injury (aha – there’s the rub).  Higher mileage, speed work, intervals, hill training – repeat, anything that adds a new level of stress. (See Daniels curve charts here: http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-june-00.htm

                     

                    Now, once you’re beyond 4 or 5 years, you’ve probably gotten to 80% or so (I made that number up, but it sounds good) of your maximum potential.  To go beyond that it will now take a systematic, structured and rigorous plan to fine tune the training.

                     

                    Until then, remember that what worked for me, or MothAudio, or NCRunner, or even LTH, isn’t necessarily going to work for you.  So try different things, and the best will be what you like to do, or gives you the challenge of the day that makes you want for more.

                    Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey

                    Lordy,  I hope there are tapes. 

                    He's a leaker!

                    B-Plus


                       

                      Until then, remember that what worked for me, or MothAudio, or NCRunner, or even LTH, isn’t necessarily going to work for you.  So try different things, and the best will be what you like to do, or gives you the challenge of the day that makes you want for more.

                       

                      I like this, especially the boldest part.


                      No more marathons

                         

                        Until then, remember that what worked for me, or MothAudio, or NCRunner, or even LTH, isn’t necessarily going to work for you.  So try different things, and the best will be what you like to do, or gives you the challenge of the day that makes you want for more.

                         

                         

                         

                        I like this, especially the boldest part.

                         

                        Yep - we are all ongoing behavior modification experiments of one.  If we get some positive reinforcement from an action it is more likley an action we will continue.  If it's more negative, we're going to move on to something else.

                         

                        I think I'll have a beer.

                        Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey

                        Lordy,  I hope there are tapes. 

                        He's a leaker!


                        Chasing the bus

                          ...And for the first 4 or 5 years of running that can be just about anything that doesn’t result in injury (aha – there’s the rub).  

                           

                          The rub indeed. I'd like to give a shoutout to whoever from RW steered me towards base building, 'cause I like to run, and I like to run faster than I should, more than I should, and I was tired, and hurt after the first 6-8 months. Us old guys with bad form sometimes learn the hard way, and pain is the great teacher. After spending the winter base building, I'm finally turning towards some speed work again, and a cruise interval run was just what I needed yesterday. And more slow running is what I need for a couple of days after that.  So thanks to you guys who do come on here and waste your time with us beginners.

                           

                          John

                          “You're either on the bus or off the bus.”
                          Tom Wolfe, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test

                          wcrunner2


                          Are we there, yet?

                             When you exercise aerobically, and lactate is an aerobic product, your body generates lactate.

                            Lactate is not an aerobic product. When exercising aerobically you produce carbon dioxide and water. A small amount of lactate is produced because there is always a small amount of anaerobic processing also. It's never 100% aerobic or 100% anaerobic. That's why the lactate threshold is a critical inflexion point to examine. When running aerobically the small amounts of lactate produced can be converted back instead of accumulating. As you run harder more energy comes from the anaerobic systems and lactate begins to accumulate.

                             2024 Races:

                                  03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                  05/11 - D3 50K
                                  05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                                  06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                             

                             

                                 

                            wcrunner2


                            Are we there, yet?

                              As with any hobby, there is an improvement curve that starts flat, shows a high level of improvement, and then levels out.  To keep bumping up the curve you need to throw in a new level of stress.  And for the first 4 or 5 years of running that can be just about anything that doesn’t result in injury (aha – there’s the rub). ...Until then, remember that what worked for me, or MothAudio, or NCRunner, or even LTH, isn’t necessarily going to work for you.  So try different things, and the best will be what you like to do, or gives you the challenge of the day that makes you want for more.

                              Indeed, there's the rub! What you like to do is sometimes the very thing that will result in injury. Just in the last few weeks I read posts from maybe half a dozen beginners who like to go out and hammer every workout because they think that's how to get faster. They're doing what they want or like to do. Where will it get them after the initial quick improvements taper off? Probably sore, tired, and possibly injured.

                               2024 Races:

                                    03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                    05/11 - D3 50K
                                    05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                                    06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                               

                               

                                   

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